New Kel-Tec PF9

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The_Shootist

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Kel-Tec's mini-9mm, the PF9 is due out maybe Aug of this year. Some might think its a tad too large for a pocket pistol. Its certainly not chambered for a "mouse-gun" calibre.

But I've pocket carried a Bersa Thunder, and currently a Makarov so I doubt the PF9 will be too heavy or big for my baggy shorts pockets. I'm also used to firing pretty warm Mak ammo (Silver Bear 115 gr or Wolf 120 gr) so I doubt it will be too unpleasant to practice with.

But I'm wondering if the 9mm loses much punch in that size gun? I mean, if you are going to carry a pocket nine, how much advantage does it have over warm Mak ammo or the FBI load in .38 spl?
 
Just ordered my PF-9 but don't expect it until August or whatever. If ammo is a concern, go to http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php Out of a G19 a Gold Dot 124gr HP will do 1310fps!!!!
You won't want to shoot a lot of +P stuff out of the PF-9 but it will tolerate some practice for CCW stuff. And, if you prefer the 115gr stuff I'm sure it will do well over 1100fps out of the PF-9.

jAK-47
 
Haing been through this myself, believe me when I say don't obsess about the magic bullet. The most important thing is where you hit em. The second most important thing is how many times you hit em there. Bullet caliber and performance comes a distant third. That said, if you must worry about it, and it seems we always do-

I have a P-11 which has the same length barrel as the PF-9 is to have. I have found that the 3.1 inch barrel does cause significant loss of velocity compared to the 4 inch barrel manufacturers use in their published figures. Just based on what I have seen chronographing different rounds from my gun, you are going to lose around a 90-100 fps for lighter weights ( 115/124), somewhat less for the heavy 147 rounds. ( just my exerience, and I cannot claim to be an expert even here on the internet.)

Whether or not a JHP performs satisfactorily - both expands and penetrates adequately- depends upon matching the chosen round's design velocities - its ideal velocity ( where it gives the best mix of expansion and penetration) and the width of its operating window ( how far above or below the optimium velocity it functions though with reduced effectiveness) to the round's velocity out of YOUR gun. ( Note- Slower than optimium velocity produces more penetration and less expansion.) You need a round that has a very wide window. Just looking at how fast the round goes doesn't always help. If it is designed to go very fast, it is also probably designed to require a high velocity to expand since manufacturer's tend to design for 4 inch guns. Leaving aside LEO only ammo, people with a lot more knowledge on this subject than I have recomend rounds like Speer's Gold Dot or Remington's Golden Saber for short barrels because of their wide operating window. For the 124 gr Gold Dot that window is over 200 fps both below and above its optimium velocity of 1150 fps. Most of the older rounds seem to me to have operating windows closer to 100 fps above and below optimium- which is a problem if you lose 100 fps right out of the barrel. I have shot 124 gr standard velocity and +P Gold Dots out of my P-11 thru denim and into water in a Fackler box - admittedly a crude , unscientific test- and consistently gotten adequate expansion ( around 1.5 times diameter) and good penetration from both. Personally, I perfer the standard velocity because it gives quicker recovery time for slightly less expansion and the same penetration. On the other hand, Speer offers a round which is a 124 gr +P that is optimized for short barrels. It's up to you to balance recoil against performance- given that you will most likily need multiple hits in a self defense situation.

I have also shot a few 38 special rounds into the same medium. Personally, I have never gotten anything to expand out of a 2nd generation detective special. If I were to go back to that gun, I would just carry wadcutters and shoot real fast. I have never tried 9mm Mak. However, I would note that the choices in JHP's in that caliber are limited and declining.

I hope this helps.

Regards-conwic
 
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conwic - good post

conwic,

Good synopsis of bullet performance! You mentioned your 38 +P gun AND that you like Gold Dots. Do you know that they make a 135gr 38 +P especially designed for snubbies? I carry either those or 100gr PowRBall in my S&W Airweight (thinking about Crimson Trace too).

Thanks again,
jAK-47
 
Thanks for the kind words, jAK-47. No, I haven't tried either round. My detective special is a 1970 gun ( exposed ejector) rather than the heavier post 72 3rd generation model designed for +P rounds. So, I haven't shot many +P rounds. I tried a GD 125 +p and somebody's 158 +P some years back, but that's all. I have heard good things about both the rounds you mention as well as the Cor Bon DPX but have no experience with them.

I don't doubt that you can do the job with a 38 given good shot placement. I have just come to prefer the 9mm, mainly because of the increased number of rounds.

Regards-conwic
 
My own +P handload pushes a 115 grain JHP Hornady XTP out the barrel of my P11 at 1260 ft/sec for 410 ft lbs. Your mak is a wimp. :D I get 1330 fps and 30 ft lbs more out of the Ruger P85, a 4 1/2 inch barrel. The 9mm is a very efficient round and does well in short barrels.
 
<My own +P handload pushes a 115 grain JHP Hornady XTP out the barrel of my P11 at 1260 ft/sec for 410 ft lbs.>

Could we have details on that load, McG?

Thanks.

Bill
 
conwic,

8 rounds of 124gr GD at 1100+fps (Double Tap) in a PF-9 OR 11 of the same in your P11 is hard to beat! Right now my G19 is my cold weather carry, my S&W Airweight when I hike or run to the store and my P32 for the beach:cool: Th P32 is also my BUG. Hopefully my PF-9 will come in before Christmas:rolleyes: and that might be my EVERYTHING gun.

This thread got me thinking about the guns I CCW. One thing about all the guns I carry is that there are no safeties to fool with and all are fairly similar to operate. IF I feel the need to throw my Mak in my pocket I use a holster and the safety is OFF. The odds of me ever having to use my weapon are slightly less than my winning the Power Ball twice in a row (I HOPE) but I'd hate to have to draw a weapon in self defense and not be able to instantly figure out how to make it go bang.

Anyone who carries different weapons for CCW should practice, practice, practice AND be able to draw and fire under stress without having to figure out how to make it go bang (or where it's concealed for that matter). I CCW in Thunderwear, IWB at 3 o'clock, in a front pocket holster and in a wallet (back pocket) holster, so I'd better know where my tool is so I grab the "right" one:D I'm hoping the PF-9 measures up so that I carry it at least 90% of the time and don't have to worry about where it is if I need it.

jAK-47
 
I e-mailed Kel Tec the other day with some questions. They told me that the PF-9 is due out in July and they said hopefully. They do not want +p ammunition in this firearm. I use 147 Ranger T- ammunition and asked them about this round and their reply was, as long as it is not +p rated your ok. It is only coming with one magazine. Looks to be a winner.
 
+P IS FINE!!!!

I copied and pasted this from the OFFICIAL Kel-Tec Homepage -
Just like the P-11, the PF-9 will accept +P ammunition, however, not with continuous use.

Check it out yourself at: http://www.kel-tec.com/pf9.html

I don't think KelTec's lawyers would let them put this on their official website unless the gun could take it. A steady diet of +P ammunition isn't good for a lot of guns (or the shooters). Just use common sense!

cocojo, you may want to ask them why they are sending conflicting messages the next time you talk with them!

Thanks,
jAK-47
 
Could we have details on that load, McG?


Hornady XTP 115 JHP bullet in front of 6.4 grains of Unique, mixed cases, WSP primers. The load is slightly compressed. It's the top load in the Speer #11 manual. The Speer book shows 1215 fps, of course a Speer bullet, from a Beretta 92, but I get more out of it. I also have loaded the same load with Winchester 115 hp bullets with similar velocity results. There is no sign of excessive primer pocket stretching or case head swelling and functioning is 100 percent. I carry these loads, but practice with a standard pressure handload or factory 115 ball, preferably WWB which shoots closest to POA in my Kel Tec.
 
Thanks, McGunner for the load data. It sounds very impressive. I'll have to try something like that in my P-11. Haven't tried a compressed load in a short barreled pistol yet but it will be interesting to see what I find as I work towards it.

Btw, I also practice with softer loads to save wear and tear on me and the gun but end the session with the warmer loads to remind me what they feel like.

Thanks again for the info.

Bill
 
jAK-47, I use standard velocity 147 ranger t ammo anyway, so it doesn't bother me in regards to +p ammo. That was the e-mail I recieved though. I am sure the gun will not blow up,but I know that a steading diet of +p ammo is going to ware the gun out much faster. I still want a PF-9 pistol. The reason I asked about the 147 ammo is that it is a long round and reliability is paramount in my view.
 
I would not obsess over bullet choice. My wife's SA UC 9mm runs with Federal 135gr Pers Def standard pressure loads.

They have always cycled without hiccup and throw the brass to the right & not on top of her head, the way the Gold Dots did.

Pick you some premium SD rounds, check out for reliability, & move on.
 
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