New Mexico State Park LEO shoots man

[antarti]

The slain man was described as an Anglo in his mid-50s whose truck and trailer had Montana license plates.

Wow, I guess in New Mexico a caucasian isn't good enough, and thus sub-classed in to "Anglo"... weird. Glad no "non-Anglo's" were given this treatment. That could be cause for Federal action.

He said the "vast majority" of parks users "comply willingly with parks fees," which generate almost two-thirds of the state parks division's budget.

"The officer was doing his job, what he was trained to do," she said.

Now a quote from me (2nd hand): SILVER, OR LEAD?

I've always heard that phrase only used in third world countries, but I guess it could be applicable here too... and at $7 per bullet to make an example out of somebody, I'd say it'll pay for itself in the first week. Nothing like job security.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

JBT apologists, JBT apologists! wherefore art thou JBT apologists?


Oh sire! They ought not refute the facts, for they fear thy truth!

 

[svtruth]

News to me

So, $14.00 is a Class Triple X, shoot on sight felony in NM?

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Apparently so, when that money is used to pay for the very park rangers that collect those fee's. Creates quite an incentive structure no?


Reminds me of OHSA making their pay day off of the fines they impose. Talk about "fair" eh? Conflict of interest? Not for them, maybe for you though. But hey, who cares about you? Gotta love these government incentive programs.

 

[Joejojoba111]

Let's be a little more fair, though. We all know that he didn't kill the man for $14, that's just hyperbole.

And we all know that when you engage in combat you'd have to be exceptional to not have an altered state of mind from it.

The problem is that all evidence suggests the dead man was non-violent. Especially after he is a superior grappler, but chooses to disengage, and walk away. That is more than luck, that's most likely skill.

The officer who was just losing a struggle might really have been in fear for his life, losing a struggle. That's what has been ingrained into his mind, that IS his training. With this altered mindset it is, contemplatable, that he could justify to himself his shots.


The real problem is that the officer started the fight. Evidence shows the dead man did not want to fight, and walked away. Police training preaches physical violence when you meet verbal non-compliance. Quite probably, the officer did exactly what he was trained. The dead man was non compliant. The officer attacked him (or whatever lengthy synonym you wish to use).

If the officer began to lose the fight he was trained to start, then his training would have told him he was about to die. Even when the man walked away the officer might not have been able to compose himself.



Speculation, based on available evidence.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

That's fine and dandy...but, that goes to show that if you don't obey - you can end up dead.

I mean, what is a police officer's word worth? Nothing. Isn't it that .40s&w on his belt holster that backs his word?

What good are tax collectors? Not very. Isn't it the barrel of the gun that enforces the law?


So we have a problem here, one that extends back to the beginning of the nation. The goverment always promotes the use of deadly force for enforcing the law - even when not confronted by a threat. That requires that a threat be created, so the tool of choice is instigation or intimidation.


Waco anybody?

 

[TallPine]

Wow, I guess in New Mexico a caucasian isn't good enough, and thus sub-classed in to "Anglo"... weird.

It may seem "weird" but that is New Mexican-ese.

IIRC, there are Indians and Spanish, and everybody else is an "Anglo" (including blacks ).

It is kind of a different country down there, or at least it used to be. One time I gave a ride to a young guy who was telling me about how his family had been in the area since about 1600 or so, and this guy had never been more than 50 miles from home.

On topic:
I dunno why somebody would refuse to pay the fee if they are using the facilities (or do you think maybe he just stopped in to pee and they wanted to charge him for a night's stay?).

Neither do I know why somebody would shoot somebody over that, or even try to make an arrest. Geez, traffic tickets are more than $14 and they don't shoot you if you don't pay on the spot Why not just get a license number and pursue it from there...? (adding interest along the way, of course)

 

[LawDog]

http://www.kedu.us/archives1.htm

ELEPHANT BUTTE STATE PARK, N.M. (AP) - Records show an arrest
warrant had been issued for a man the day he was fatally shot
following a dispute over a camping fee at Elephant Butte State
Park.
Truth or Consequences police obtained the warrant for 58-year-old Bruce Teschner, who was killed Tuesday night by a State Parks officer.
[highlight]Teschner was accused in the warrant of harassing a teenage girl in hopes of getting her to pose for nude photographs.[/highlight]
Authorities say officer Clyde Woods shot Teschner after Teschner refused to pay a 14-dollar-a-night camping fee and refused to leave the park.
Woods is on standard paid leave pending the outcome of a state police investigation into the shooting.

http://www.borderlandnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050826/NEWS/508260336/1001

LAS CRUCES -- Investigators have identified a man shot to death Tuesday by a state parks officer at Elephant Butte State Park, and court records reveal the man had been in trouble with the law several times in the months before his death.

The man was identified as Bruce Teschner, 58, said New Mexico State Police Lt. Jimmy Glascock. Teschner has ties to Colorado, but court records indicate he had been in Sierra County since at least December.

His shooting was the first fatal shooting by an officer at one of New Mexico's 32 state parks in at least 30 years. State police are investigating, and the officer involved, Clyde Woods, is on paid administrative leave pending the conclusion of the investigation, said Dave Simon, New Mexico state parks director.

The confrontation began just after 8 p.m. Tuesday at Lion's Beach, a busy area near the visitor's center, after Teschner became belligerent with a park volunteer over a $14 camping fee he refused to pay, officials say.

According to court records, Teschner had an outstanding bench warrant in Sierra County for failing to appear in court on a harassment charge. He was [highlight]also[/highlight] awaiting trial on charges of [highlight]resisting, evading or obstructing an officer and disorderly conduct[/highlight] stemming from a June incident, and failure to carry automobile insurance and wear a safety belt stemming from a December incident.

He was going to be arrested for trying to bully a teen-age girl into letting him take nude photos of her.

Not to mention the trial for a previous resisting charge, an evading or obstructing charge and a disordely conduct charge.

Small town New Mexico + trying to take nude pictures of a teenager + through bullying.

Now for those of us whose minds aren't already made up, the term "Suicide by Cop" comes to mind. Those of us who haven't leapt to a conclusion might tend to believe that Mr. Teschner was wanted someone to kill him, rather than go to trial for a sex-based offense, and that Ranger Woods drew the lucky card.

JBT apologists, JBT apologists! wherefore art thou JBT apologists?


Oh sire! They ought not refute the facts, for they fear thy truth!

No comment.

LawDog

 

[Phyphor]

http://www.kedu.us/archives1.htm



http://www.borderlandnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050826/NEWS/508260336/1001



He was going to be arrested for trying to bully a teen-age girl into letting him take nude photos of her.

Not to mention the trial for a previous resisting charge, an evading or obstructing charge and a disordely conduct charge.

Small town New Mexico + trying to take nude pictures of a teenager + through bullying.

Now for those of us whose minds aren't already made up, the term "Suicide by Cop" comes to mind. Those of us who haven't leapt to a conclusion might tend to believe that Mr. Teschner was wanted someone to kill him, rather than go to trial for a sex-based offense, and that Ranger Woods drew the lucky card.



No comment.

LawDog

That may be the case, but why would he wish to be shot in the back?

 

[Art Eatman]

You know what is impresssive about the Internet? Well, one impressive thing: Never had I really realized how much wild-eyed speculation there can be from so few known facts. Nor how emotional folks can get. Seems like the less that is known, the greater the importance of "being right".

Speculation: The officer could be a nut case: The dead guy said, "You don't have the guts to shoot me!" Oops. Wrong.

The dead guy could have been a nut case: "You won't shoot me in the back, but you just wait 'til I get my own gun." Oops.

Sooner or later we might actually learn something about why it all went down the way it did. Then we don't have to warble out all this speculation but discuss what it might mean insofar as future avoidance...

Art

 

[TallPine]

Never had I really realized how much wild-eyed speculation there can be from so few known facts.

Sounds like a pretty good return on investment to me ....

Now, time for another beer

 

[gunsmith]

Too Many Western Movies

Why all the hoopla over shooting a guy in the back?

The guy had his hands in his pockets, my .25acp fits in my smallest pocket...
my .357mag sp101 can fit in many of my pockets.

Cops tell you to keep your hands out of your pocket for a good reason....

Now about "shot in the back" stuff. You can't use tactics learned from too many TV westerns and expect to survive. A criminal with a gun isn't likely to engage in the classic duel at high noon and in reality that rarely if ever happened in the real old west, and you would be an idiot to engage in a duel...( well except for me, I am related to Aaron Burr so I am bred to win duels )....

Anyway those wounds in his back may be exit wounds

 

[Broadhead]

Elephant Butte...

That place was famous a couple of years ago...

 

[TheEgg]

Those of us who haven't leapt to a conclusion might tend to believe that Mr. Teschner was wanted someone to kill him, rather than go to trial for a sex-based offense, and that Ranger Woods drew the lucky card.

Wow! Such wild speculation! I sure didn't see in what you posted any indication of this yet, such as previous statements or behaviour that could be considered suicidal -- maybe he was just dumb as a box of rocks, and did not understand what resisting arrest can lead too?

I guess we all like to speculate -- where our speculation leads us just depends on our bias, doesn't it?

We have now extablished that Mr. Teschner was probably not the poster child for good behaviour. Still open is whether or not the officer was justified in killing him. For example, nowhere in the information we have at this time do we know if the officer was even aware that Teschner had a warrant out for his arrest. Nowhere in the information we have at this time do we know if the officer was aware of ANY information about Teschner's previous 'troubles' with the law. Besides, I am not sure that any of this would even be relevant -- I would think that the investigation needs to simply tell us if the officer had a reasonable fear for his life/serious injury or not.

He was also awaiting trial on charges of resisting, evading or obstructing an officer and disorderly conduct stemming from a June incident, and failure to carry automobile insurance and wear a safety belt stemming from a December incident.

Teschner was accused in the warrant of harassing a teenage girl in hopes of getting her to pose for nude photographs.

Remember folks -- presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. This goes for BOTH PARTIES IN THIS INCIDENT!

I still think it is OK to discuss such cases, as long as we all don't get all doctrinaire, and remain willing to change our opinions based on new facts.

 

[antarti]

Teschner was accused in the warrant of harassing a teenage girl in hopes of getting her to pose for nude photographs.

Authorities say officer Clyde Woods shot Teschner after Teschner refused to pay a 14-dollar-a-night camping fee and refused to leave the park.

So now you have an allegedly violent (toward the police) man, a possible pervert whose dead, and that's that eh?

The fact is the officer wanted $14. He didn't know about the warrants, or he would have been trying to get him into custody.

I maintain it was SILVER OR LEAD. Nothing above changes my mind, but if it makes you feel better, I am happy for you.

 

[deanf]

I maintain it was SILVER OR LEAD.

So you really think the officer made the concious decision that the man was going to die if he didn't pay $14?

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

I don't, but the "training" or better yet, the dynamic that's in place sets up these types of outcomes. It happens so often, it is almost like a script.


It's about the civilian v. the State. Where do we draw the line on the initiation of force to impose one's will onto another?

 

[deanf]

It's about the civilian v. the State. Where do we draw the line on the initiation of force to impose one's will onto another?

Yes. This "you will comply at all costs" attitude is a problem. Of course it's always covered in the cloak of "officer safety."

 

[antarti]

Quote:
I maintain it was SILVER OR LEAD.

So you really think the officer made the concious decision that the man was going to die if he didn't pay $14?

You have a better explanation of why he just didn't mail a ticket? You heard my best guess, lets hear yours.

This isn't a guy caught with a gun in one hand, an open zipper, and a hostage in the other....

Now I'll admit, maybe 40% of it had to do with not obeying the officer, and just walking away, thereby insulting him. The talk about "insulting the cop heart" from the car chase in the book "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" comes to mind...

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

You raise an excellent point. There's this phenomenon where officers often go totally ballistic on innocent people when they simply do not comply with the officers often irrational demands. Sometimes there is compliance, just not to the officer's satisfaction. This "you better listen to me" type compulsive behavior gets the better of many in a position of authority. Heck, I won't even get into why many of these personality types seek professions where they are given power and authority...

There are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of video's, articles and stories of police abuse. I understand they are under tremendous stress, but that isn't the fault of the civilian.


I think we can all agree that park fees don't warrant a bullet in the back.


Also, a firearm in the hands of an officer or authority is a tool for self-defense I'd imagine. When used to "enforce" the law, or to gain compliance, it becomes an offensive weapon. A weapon of coersion, fear, and control.

 

[patrol120]

Im sorry guys, but the risk of insultaion is not the reason 100% compliance is necessary. Every time you give a bad guy (and no, Im not say9ing everyone is bad) their way, it makes it harder on the next officer who must deal with them. If something is not done to gain compiance, then there very well could be a dead officer who paid the cost of your inability to perform your duties.

 

[buzz_knox]

Im sorry guys, but the risk of insultaion is not the reason 100% compliance is necessary. Every time you give a bad guy (and no, Im not say9ing everyone is bad) their way, it makes it harder on the next officer who must deal with them. If something is not done to gain compiance, then there very well could be a dead officer who paid the cost of your inability to perform your duties.

True enough. No cop is ever going to have to worry about this perp (potential perp since he wasn't convicted or arrested?) again.

 

[auschip]

You have a better explanation of why he just didn't mail a ticket?

He didn't have his ID, and thus no contact information? Obviously that would be just a WAG, but probably a good a guess as any of the others thus far.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

True enough. No cop is ever going to have to worry about this perp (potential perp since he wasn't convicted or arrested?) again.

Holy Minority Report Batman!


Let's execute potential criminals before they commit a crime. Make's it easier for "law enforcement" down the road.


Pre-emptive law-enforcement - wave of the future.

 

[patrol120]

I was referring to the comment made wondering why compliance is necessary, and the one stating that it insults the officer.

I am not defending nor accusing the NM Ranger.I will say that while it is possible that shooting someone in the back is justified, its not very probable. I will wait and see what happens on this deal, but it seems to be a bit off the level.

To be legally justified to shoot someone while fleeing, the officer must be able to articulate thatthe person had committed, or was committing a violent felony, and if he escaped, he would pose a danger to the officer or others, i.e., Tennessee v. Garner. I just dont see that here.

I might be wrong, but it doesnt smell good to me.