Jacksonville, Fla Man killed by LEOs in yard.

[Blackfork]

More Drug War news. The police decided to sell drugs in this guys yard. He came out armed to run them off thinking they were the ordinary drug dealers. They shot him. More news stories after this one have the police admitting he was a law abiding citizen.


By Ryan Duffy and Victor Blackwell
First Coast News

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- Jacksonville Narcotics officers shot and killed a man during an undercover operation on the Southside.

The shooting happened in the 2300 block of Westmont Street, just off Philips Highway Saturday night.

"An individual approached from between two houses brandishing a handgun. The officers gave several commands to drop the gun, he did not, so they exchanged gunfire," says Chief Dwain Senterfitt.

Witnesses told First Coast News it appeared the man mistook the officers for drug dealers and was trying to scare them away.

"The man came out three times and said move out of my yard. So after the third time he came out with a 357 and started shooting at the individuals," said a witness who did not want to be identified.

Police say officers shot the man several times and there were bullets found in a tree the officers had used as cover.

The man died at Shands Jacksonville.

A man who says he is the victim's nephew tells First Coast News that the victim was weeks from turning 81 years old. He says his uncle was a respected man in the neighborhood that everyone called, 'Pops.'

"He [got] his enjoyment from sitting under a tree and watching his collard greens and cabbages grow," said nephew Gary Evans.

"The only time anybody would hear anything out of my uncle is if they stopped in front of his house and tried to do whatever deals they wanted to do," Evans added.

Officers John Maynard and James Narcisse have been placed on administrative leave, which is standard procedure in police shootings.

The narcotics officers had been working in the neighborhood in response to complaints by residents about the drug activity.

The undercover investigation netted five arrests before the shooting.

The deadly shooting is the second by JSO in a week.

Last weekend narcotics officers shot and killed 18-year-old Doug Woods at the Sable Palms Apartments on Emerson, which is blocks from the scene of the latest shooting.

Investigators said Woods tried to rob an undercover officer with a gun.

Witnesses claim Woods only had a cell phone in his hand.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

i believe this was discussed and locked by the mods....

 

[1911 guy]

Locked after going big time O.T.

Let's keep this one on topic and see where it goes.

 

[xd45gaper]

i saw this on the news. i dont know how much i beleve from the witness's, JSO, or the news around here...

from what they "said" on the news the police idenitified them selves as JSO when the guy came out with his gun.

as for the last part about the JSO shooting the MAN (i say man because he is 18yrs old and the news kept calling him a child over and over when it happend) with the "cellphone" i would give more crediabilty to a dog that saw what happend than i would to the people that "witnessed" it.

 

[joab]

Well this one has already gone off topic.

The police decided to sell drugs in this guys yard.

The articles I read say "near his yard" and in "front of his house" Nowhere does it say that the cops were "in his yard"

He came out armed to run them off

According to one witness he came out shooting and the cops shot back, big difference.

More news stories after this one have the police admitting he was a law abiding citizen.

I guess even lawabiding citizens can commit violent crimes

Now that some of the disinformation has been addressed.
Show me your research into some new Florida law that allows homeowners to use deadly force to move anybody from public right of way.
Florida allows deadly force to stop a forceable felony not loitering or even drug dealing.
Witnesses also establish Pops decided that he was lord of the street Hetried to assert that authority on someone he shouldn't have

Edwards says the Undercover Narcotics Unit was using the area near Singletary's yard to bust drug operations in the neighborhood

Gary Evans, Singletary's nephew, told Channel 4 that his uncle was territorial and mad about illegal drug activity near his Westmont Street home.

 

[poor_richard]

According to one witness he came out shooting and the cops shot back, big difference.

Could you please give a reference to this info since it isn't in the article?

 

[xd45gaper]

from what the news said, they where doing something in his front yard, it didnt say if they where dealing drugs or not. he came out several times to run them off the third time he came out with a gun. when he did that the JSO pulled there weapons "identified" them selves. when they pulled there weapons he started shooting. thats when they shot and killed him. (the news here as im sure it does every where just puts in what it wants, so basically they made this sound like another cold blooded murder by the JSO who are trying to clean up the streets of Jax)

all my info is from the news. i never even followed up on it. also i was not there so i can not be 100% positive as to what happend im real sure you cant just whip a gun out and chase someone from your front yard. brandishing comes to mind. even though its legal to open carry on your property. espically if they are on the side walk or in the area between the sidewalk and the street. that is owned by the city.

i really find it hard to beleve they where actually in his front yard dealing drugs i now most people that buy or sell drugs dont have alot of common sense but think about 2 guys standing in your front yard 7 feet from your house/porch selling drugs?

i would be willing to bet they where either A on the side walk or B in the area between the sidewalk and the street. or C just in front of the guys house in the street.

 

[1911 guy]

They were on his property.

The dealers were indeed on his property. There were mixed reports about this in the beginning. I'll dig up the newest article right now and post a link if I can. If no link, I'll type it out.
http://www.nashvillesnews.net/node/4761
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/118420.html
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/027459.php#027459
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1/31/151830/402

How is discussing the situation going off topic? Just because you don't particularly like the subject matter doesn't make it O.T.

 

[xd45gaper]

http://www.news4jax.com/video/10865934/index.html

if that doesnt pull up the video search this "Armed 80-Year-Old Man Shot, Killed By Undercover Officers"

as you can see the story has changed again. saying the police just got up and shot the man...

 

[hammer4nc]

Reverse sting: Police selling drugs...

Could someone please post the statute that makes it permissable for police to break the law(distribution of drugs), in order to enforce the law(simple possession of drugs)?

Absent a response, what conclusions should be drawn re: equal application of the law?

 

[joab]

In the original post

"The man came out three times and said move out of my yard. So after the third time he came out with a 357 and started shooting at the individuals," said a witness who did not want to be identified.

 

[1911 guy]

That, also, is being debated.

There is confusion now as to who fired first.

 

[ilbob]

Why are cops dealing drugs anyway? Are there no violent criminals left to arrest?

 

[xd45gaper]

well if you ask the newphew (that was not even there) or most of the witness's the police shot first. if you ask the police the man shot first lol.

"Could someone please post the statute that makes it permissable for police to break the law(distribution of drugs), in order to enforce the law(simple possession of drugs)?"

the police are not selling drugs for a profit. which is why drug dealers sell drugs. im sure its a sting operation. like when they bust the Johns for solicting hookers! comeon man dont you watch COPS!

 

[ZeSpectre]

"The man came out three times and said move out of my yard. So after the third time he came out with a 357 and started shooting at the individuals," said a witness who did not want to be identified.

Assuming for a moment that the above is a true and accurate statement...

Sometimes I think that if this were the common, expected, response there would be a LOT less overt drug dealing and street thuggery because it would make being a criminal more dangerous.

Other times I worry that (un)common sense and self-restraint would suffer and there would be an awful lot of unintended consequences. Hrmmm, I think I'm going to have to put this situation on todays "pondering" list.

 

[Technosavant]

im real sure you cant just whip a gun out and chase someone from your front yard

Check local laws. Around here, I can patrol my front yard with my AK all day long, and while the neighbors might get nervous and the police might tell me they would prefer me to not do so, it is most certainly not illegal. If somebody is committing illegal activities on my property, I can carry that AK out there and ask them to leave without breaking any laws. Covering them with the muzzle might be a hazy area, but I highly doubt that anything would come of it.

Heck, in St. Louis City, a women met a girl scout at her door with the business end of a shotgun and the police and prosecutor admitted they can't do anything about it (they did take the shotgun, which was probably an illegal seizure), but she faces no legal recourse. If that is possible with a Girl Scout selling cookies (who wants to run them off- I welcome such solicitations at my house... mmmm... cookies....), then the front yard with drug dealers would not be out of the question.

However, it would have been MUCH wiser to just call the police on them.

 

[joab]

Assuming for a moment that the above is a true and accurate statement...

If you dispute that statement then you must dispute all other witness statements, and where does that leave us?

The state of Florida has well defined rules of when you can use deadly force, chasing off loiterers is not on the list no matter what you think they are doing.

This guy had an established reputation of playing cock of the walk.
He had ample time and opportunity to call the police instead he chose to take the law into his own hands.
How many times have members here chastised a homeowner for clearing his own house or going out to investigate that guy squatting in the back yard ,how is this different.

How many times have we seen the question "What will you do if he doesn't comply" asked of the member who asks if he should draw on a car thief in his driveway?
Why does Pops get a pass?

 

[1911 guy]

A little disageement with the above.

This guy had an established reputation of playing cock of the walk.

No, he had a reputation for not putting up with dope peddlers and was respected for it, except by the cops in question

He had ample time and opportunity to call the police instead he chose to take the law into his own hands

Maybe because the cops were to busy peddling dope in his front yard.

How many times have members here chastised a homeowner for clearing his own house or going out to investigate that guy squatting in the back yard ,how is this different.

This one, you've got a point, but culpability goes back to the cops. If they had left when told to do so (after refusing to leave, they were tresspassing), this situation would have been effectively over with nobody hurt. Instead, they chose to break the law (tresspassing) and proceeded to shoot the man.

This is the real issue here, why the police didn't end a tense situation when thy athance. After ne, uch less two, trips outside by the elderly man, you'd think that a lightbulb would go on that this wasn't the best place to hawk their wares.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Need Information

I think we need some background on Isaac Singletary before the whole story can be told. I'd like to know how many times Isaac called the police in the past about drug dealers in front of his house or on his street that he could see. I'd like to know how many times the police responded to any calls and how many calls were ignored. I'd like to hear from witnesses how many times Isaac turned drug dealers away from his front yard in the past.

I'd like to know if the UC cops ever called in that they were having a problem with a resident of the house they were operating in front of. I'd like to know why the police weren't going after drug dealers in stead(Drug dealers break many more laws than users do).

Were the cops trying to get a rise out of the dealers whose turf they were on?

Too many unanswered questions.

Too many innocent people being killed regardless of the cause. I think the tactics are questionable.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood

 

[yinyangdc]

Whoever did what wrong, there is one glaring point that is getting glossed over:

No War on Drugs = This never happened.

 

[ZeSpectre]

The state of Florida has well defined rules of when you can use deadly force, chasing off loiterers is not on the list no matter what you think they are doing.

This guy had an established reputation of playing cock of the walk.
He had ample time and opportunity to call the police instead he chose to take the law into his own hands. How many times have members here chastised a homeowner for clearing his own house or going out to investigate that guy squatting in the back yard ,how is this different.

How many times have we seen the question "What will you do if he doesn't comply" asked of the member who asks if he should draw on a car thief in his driveway?
Why does Pops get a pass?

I guess you didn't understand the rest of what I wrote.

If you dispute that statement then you must dispute all other witness statements, and where does that leave us?

That leaves us viewing the entire thing with a healthy dose of skepticism. We weren't there and are getting all of our information second hand, via the managed media no less.

The state of Florida has well defined rules of when you can use deadly force, chasing off loiterers is not on the list no matter what you think they are doing.

As far as I understand Florida law this is true and I never argued otherwise. I was pondering a theory where the (currently non-existant) ability to legally remove trespassers might have an impact on crime.

This guy had an established reputation of playing cock of the walk.
He had ample time and opportunity to call the police instead he chose to take the law into his own hands. How many times have members here chastised a homeowner for clearing his own house or going out to investigate that guy squatting in the back yard ,how is this different.

It's not, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was brainstorming about how changes in the law might cause changes in crime. I see a large problem with current law enforcement growing out of the change in mentality from old school "this is how people are, how do we deal with that" to new school "people should behave -this- way, how do we force them to do so".

I'm not giving gramps a "pass", he handled the whole thing very stupidly but I'm also marveling at is how current law enforcement completely ignores the fact that some people are like that and won't bow down/go away regardless. If the local cops knew about this tendancy then it was a really dumb place to run the sting. For example I used to patrol a neighborhood with a "big momma" type (definitely the top hen). A lot of people used to talk trash about her supposed "self importance" so we (the cops who patroled) all knew about her. So common sense dictated that we knew better than to run any operations in the area because big momma WOULD wind up involved. (Side note- I have nothing but respect for big momma, I bet she kept more kids out of gangs and juvie than any other 5 programs combined).

Bottom line, there was a lot of poor judgement involved all the way around and good policing involves really knowing the community you are working with/for.

 

[joab]

Where has it been established that the police were trespassing?
It has only been suggested by people in the neighborhood that may or may not have even been there at the time.
If we believe them then we must believe that the guy came out shooting.

This is the off topicness I was speaking of. Because it fits your argument then the police must have been trespassing even though that has not been established and is very doubtful

Several statements have been made about him being territorial and chasing off people from in front of his houseThat's from his supporters, who are the only people we have heard from. Nobody is going to come out a call the old dead guy a menace in the paper

Maybe because the cops were to busy peddling dope in his front yard.

So are you saying that he knew that these were police? Or that these are the only officers working that day?

This is the real issue here, why the police didn't end a tense situation when thy athance.

Does the guy that chose to initiate the shootout bear any responsibility?
If these guys had not been cops he would not have had the right to shoot at them or even threaten them and they would have had the right to shoot back.

 

[xd45gaper]

I'd like to know why the police weren't going after drug dealers in stead(Drug dealers break many more laws than users do).


"The narcotics officers had been working in the neighborhood in response to complaints by residents about the drug activity."

it never said they where or where not busting the user's.

 

[joab]

I guess you didn't understand the rest of what I wrote.

I understood it I just didn't comment on it

That leaves us viewing the entire thing with a healthy dose of skepticism. We weren't there and are getting all of our information second hand, via the managed media no less.

I see you understand where I was going, where I always go in these conversations.

If the local cops knew about this tendancy then it was a really dumb place to run the sting

Apparently this was not the first time that location was used in a sting. It seems like it was not an unusual occurance at all.I'll have to find that link later I have to wonder why that is

 

[romma]

Could someone please post the statute that makes it permissable for police to break the law(distribution of drugs), in order to enforce the law(simple possession of drugs)?

I don't know or believe that there are any laws (other than the patriot act) that allows that.. If there were, they wouldn't be breaking the law then... Doesn't matter because they, (not just some police but other sanctioned officials) just do it anyways... And the cries of the people fall on deaf ears as usual!! WE THE PEOPLE,,,CAN NOT BE HEARD! Just herded...