New Orleans Begins Confiscating Firearms (merged w/ "You're all gonna love this one")

[Ridge]

Every single one of those SOB's should be shot for treason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think all of us that can should head down to LA and disarm the NO police and National guard.If they don't surrender shoot 'em!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kbr80]

If it is, in fact, legal, you (in the sense of the citizenry of LA) did, in fact, allow them to take your guns. Laws are promulgated by the people you (in the general sense) elect.

Coronach,

I Agree with you, and what you said above is the way its supposed to work. It does not work that way, and has not worked that way in a very long time. Yes, we elect people, but we dont control the insane laws they pass. I can cite several laws, as I am sure you can, that no one would have though would be passed. The AWB comes to mind.

 

[GAMALOT]

We all like to try to fit these things into our own set of circumstances.
Not many would disagree with the NG going into a city to stop Looting or Rioting. The second they turn toward depriving you of your rights it becomes a big problem.
I agree, they have no business and I would not hesitate to stand for what I believe in.
If they said, turn in all registered weapons, for safe keeping while this state of emergency exists and exit the city. I would comply as long as I knew my weapons would be returned at the end.
I do believe they have some legal jurisdiction to force evacuation.
What is being said here, and I am not yet certain it is FACT, is to hand over your registered guns, never to be seen again unless you are friendly with the cop who ends up with them. BS!
Gary

 

[RealGun]

However, not all amendments have case law support for 14th amendment due process clause violations. - Coronach

I wouldn't validate the incorporation doctrine. It's BS. "Settled law" maybe, but it's BS and means the 14th doesn't mean what it says.

 

[RealGun]

It wasn't just the NOPD

Try "federal marshals"

*****************8

Troops Escalate Urgency of Evacuation

By Timothy Dwyer and Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 9, 2005; Page A01

NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 8 -- Outside Kajun's Pub, between the relatively dry French Quarter and the heavily flooded Ninth Ward, bar owner JoAnn Guidos loaded up her 1991 Ford Econoline van with clothing, liquor and other necessities Thursday morning. After holding out for 10 days, Guidos and her friends were finally leaving New Orleans and heading to high ground.

The beer was still cold, thanks to a working generator, and hopes for customers were strong as the flood-ravaged city fills with thirsty soldiers and emergency workers.

But on Wednesday night, Guidos said, armed federal agents identifying themselves as U.S. marshals confiscated her weapons and ordered her and six friends to leave by noon Thursday.

"When you get 15 M-16s pointed at you and they line you up against the wall, it's kind of scary," said Guidos, 55.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Are these actions legal in areas where martial law has been declared?

There is no such thing as martial law, except that law which applies to military personnel. Honest Abe Lincoln invented the notion of applying it to civilians, but this is not authorized in law. The most the Constitution authorizes is a suspension of habeas corpus by an act of Congress, which means that for the duration of the crisis, and for only so long as the courts are not, due to the crisis, functioning, the police and military are temporarily authorized, by an act of Congress, to arrest and hold people without the benefit of due process until the courts are in session again, and order has been restored. This does not, however, give the police and military the authorization to adopt a policy of generally confiscating firearms from private citizens. Therefore, resistance to the despotic action in question is perfectly legal, even to the point of using lethal force. It is, one could even argue, your duty as Americans to resist, unto death, with whatever degree of force is required to preserve your rightful liberties.

 

[hillbilly]

The wholesale confiscation of legally owned firearms, along with the statement "only the police will be allowed to have guns" is completely unacceptable.

I've just emailed the link to the NY Times story along with the text to the NRA-ILA.

I will wait and see what happens.

Considering the story broke Sept. 8, and today, Friday, is Sept 9, I doubt you will hear any "statement" or see any "action" until at least Monday.

hillbilly

 

[geekWithA.45]

Hmmm. How long before the NATO troops will be given the authority to confiscate weapons?

The authority to confiscate arms from peacable citizens has never been ceded by the citizens to government.

NO SUCH AUTHORITY EXISTS.

 

[RealGun]

I would comply as long as I knew my weapons would be returned at the end.

You are surrendering your right of self defense at the same time that the police are not responsible for protecting individual citizens. Face it. It doesn't compute. Surrendering weapons is "all we like sheep".

 

[Preacherman]

Friends, I can only point you to the two threads I've posted in S&T about lessons learned from Katrina and the bug-out from New Orleans. Specifically, see Point #13 in Post #1 in this thread, and Point #5 in Post #1 in this thread.

I believe, as do most (all?) of us posting here, that the actions of the New Orleans authorities in confiscating legally-owned firearms are unconstitutional. However, the courts have not ruled on this matter - and unless and until they do, we're basically screwed. If you take up arms against the authorities under such circumstances, the media, the authorities, etc. will all label you a rebel, a criminal, etc.

What we need is for this case to hit the courts ASAP, and make it all the way to the Supreme Court for a definitive ruling on the Second Amendment as an individual right. Based on past rulings that have emphasized the collective right interpretation of the 2A, the authorities will almost certainly argue that they have the right to confiscate the weapons of individuals. We have to establish case law that protects the individual-right interpretation - and that case law does not exist at the highest level (yet).

I hope the NRA gets involved in this case ASAP, and files a lawsuit with all speed. This is probably the "smoking gun" case that we've been waiting for, with clear, unambiguous issues that directly and immediately impact the meaning and validity of the 2A. However, I also urge members not to be silly and post a "call to arms" or "shoot the JBT's" response - that doesn't help our cause at all. We need to approach this issue from a legal and constitutional perspective, not make ourselves look like slack-jawed, gun-totin', arm-dragging neanderthals.

Sure, in the short term, it sucks to be a law-abiding owner of firearms in New Orleans: but in the long term, this incident might just be the "acid test" of the Second Amendment that determines its future (and ours, as firearms owners). It's up to us to defend the Constitution - but in a Constitutional way.

 

[RealGun]

Preacherman, I don't think it will get the attention it needs until someone dies. I am reminded of Ruby Ridge and Waco.

To say that nothing can be done without going to the devil's court is a tyranny of its own.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

It's up to us to defend the Constitution - but in a Constitutional way.

Since the Constitution does not bind citizens who are not acting as agents of government, how is it possible for us to do anything in a "Constitutional way?" Remember that the Constitution is a restriction on government, and we are the ones who put it there. When those restrictions are ignored to the destruction of our liberties (and even our lives), whose duty is it ultimately to enforce those restrictions?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

When Real Gun actually states that government has crossed the line, I start to get nervous and check to see if my powder is dry because he is ordinarily slow as molasses in this regard.

 

[cuchulainn]

PreachermanWhat we need is for this case to hit the courts ASAP, and make it all the way to the Supreme Court for a definitive ruling on the Second Amendment as an individual right. Based on past rulings that have emphasized the collective right interpretation of the 2A, the authorities will almost certainly argue that they have the right to confiscate the weapons of individuals. We have to establish case law that protects the individual-right interpretation - and that case law does not exist at the highest level (yet).

Actually, Preacherman, NOLA (and Louisiana) are under the 5th Circuit, and, AFAIK, the ruling interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is Emerson, which recognizes an individual right (Mr. Emerson's legal woes notwithstanding). Although SCOTUS refused to review Emerson, the 5th stands at odds with other circuits, and this might -- might -- be the impetus to force such review.

OTOH, we're dealing with martial law (or "public emergency" or whatever euphamism the lawmakers use). It is set to end within the month. Could we get a special session of SCOTUS (sans a chief justice) before then? Doubtful. Would a case have legs after the fact -- after the violations (presumably) cease and rights are "restored"? Again, doubtful.

In the end, even if you do get review, you still might would get something like "well, yes, the 2nd. protects individuals, but in a special crisis like this the state has the power to violate individuals' rights." You also might get SCOTUS ruling that the individual-right stuff was not pertinent to the case, so is meaningless dicta (I'd disagree, but it's possible).

On the third hand (speaking of toxic sludge), I'm not a lawyer, so YMMV. I'm going to start a separate "Emerson and NOLA thread" to seek such input (so it's not hidden on page whatever of this thread).

By the way, thanks for inserting some calm thinking into this discussion. The only thing that would make Chuck Shumer and Sarah Brady happier about this is if a handful of fools commit suicide by NG. Revolutions happen, and sometimes are justified. But (right or wrong) there will be no revolution over this.

 

[bhart89]

Watching what is going on in N.O. has reminded me that I need more 8" PVC and posthole diggers...

 

[JohnBT]

"However, the courts have not ruled on this matter "

I suppose they could march on down to the NO Federal Courthouse and have their lawyer file a stay or somesuch. Oh, wait a minute, the city is under a mandatory evacuation order and it's closed.

Continuing in the devil's advocate role here for a minute...Having violated the mandatory evacuation order, do those remaining holdouts even have the legal right under NO or LA law to possess a firearm? Beats me, I'm not even a VA lawyer.

Is the evacuation order legal? Beats me again. They could sue the city to find out, but again, the courthouse is closed.

What to do? What to do?

John

 

[cuchulainn]

To say that nothing can be done without going to the devil's court is a tyranny of its own.

Preacherman is talking about winning -- or losing -- the minds of the people. Like it or not -- right or wrong -- starting violence before all the other steps are officially complete (and probably then some) simply will turn the people against you.

Lose the people and you lose.

Now is not the time to give into passion.

 

[El Rojo]

I agree with Preacherman. If we could get half of you that are calling for a stockpiling of arms and making hollow threats to shoot the transgressors to instead just write your congressman, senators, the NRA, your local paper, and the President, maybe this thing could go somewhere. For sure this manly posturing is certainly not helping anyone and is merely false bravado for the Internet crowd. If you are such a defender of liberty that you would take up arms for this, then shut up and go do it. Form your militia and go take back the situation. Actions speak louder than words.

What am I doing? I wrote a letter to everyone I listed above and I will be writing more in the next few days. It only took 30 minutes of my time and if you wish, you can go steal my own words from me so it will only take you about 10 minutes. Your letter writing will most certainly accomplish more than this tough shoot em up talk. Get busy.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1902059&postcount=13

 

[JohnBT]

""shoot the JBT's""

Uh-oh.

JBT

 

[El Rojo]

RUN John, RUN! (but you will only die tired)

 

[RealGun]

When Real Gun actually states that government has crossed the line, I start to get nervous and check to see if my powder is dry because he is ordinarily slow as molasses in this regard. - The Real Hawkeye

I am only slow in bowing to everything you offer. I am always skeptical when someone is dogmatic. Expect to be challenged on occasion. You are not the only one who knows anything.

 

[Walt Rauch]

Silly Rabbits! The "authorities" have confiscated legal firearms in every civil disorder at which I attended in the '60s. In every one, LE, in one guise or another, disarmed populace.

Our "right to bear arms" is a fiction. We can get licenses, permits, etc.; be NICS checked - all this so that we think we have the right to our arms -until society breaks down, then the state gathers all weapons.

Doubt this? Research the actions taken in such "disturbances" that occurred after Martin Luther King was killed say in Washington, DC, Detroit and Newark in the 60s.

After all, once past denial, why else have lists of guns owned? To return them to rightful owners after theft? Sure. An entry into NCIC can do this without the need for mass registration.

The call for martial law is a mixed blessing; one of the first and very necessary precepts within it is to disarm possible threats for safety and the re establishing of law and order.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I just finished sending letters to the President, both of my senators, and my congressman.

Everyone else please do the same! Nothing less than the integrity of the Republic is at stake.

If you won't even write a letter, then please shut up about "voting from the rooftops" and "feeding the hogs".

 

[RealGun]

Now is not the time to give into passion.

The line in the sand was crossed a long time ago.

Keep in mind that whatever case you brought to court, they would refuse to hear the case. Silviera was the last straw for me. Due process is BS.

 

[cuchulainn]

The line in the sand was crossed a long time ago.

Keep in mind that whatever case you brought to court, they would refuse to hear the case. Silviera was the last straw for me. Due process is BS

Maybe so. But we still shouldn't give into passion. Passion makes us do stupid things. We can't afford that. We need to be smart.

No matter what you decide to do about this, be guided by calm and reasonable thinking.