New Remington R51 shipments??
- Thread starter Sniper66
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Goju
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knowing the firearms industry, I will be happy to have mine back by Christmas.
Tommygunn
Member
I may be a tad late on the replacement boat, but I called up Tuesday and the experience with Remington was fine.
I haven't received anything from Remington yet but it is still maybe a little early. I probably won't be getting my replacement R51 in October considering how late I applied, but I am in no real hurry as I have other handguns available that fit the purpose.
I still say this whole R51 thing is a very sad mess. All in all I like the gun -- I WANT to atleast; it's is a neat looking gun and it fits my hand very well. But given the reputation for short chambers and the rough interior ...back to the manufacturer it goes.
Tommygunn
Member
I shot it once at the range, a couple of FMJ boxloads, and had a failure to extract one time.
The thing that concerned me about this was that there are indications on the round* that the gun I have (like,apparently, many others) is short-chambered. That just isn't something that sits right with me.
Oh -- and I remember I had one occasion when a round jammed in the gun .... removing THAT (live) round was...an interesting experience indeed. I think that was due to the short chamber but it was awhile ago and unfortunatly I didn't think to look on the round for clues.
Anyway ... I do not trust this gun.....I WANT to like it but I think after spending the $$ I am due a new one since Remington botched this so badly, IMHO.
*- And should have said, on many of the cases that were ejected. There were the initial "impacts" of rifling marks that looked like little scrapes. "SHORT" chambered ...yea, slightly, I'd say.
The thing that concerned me about this was that there are indications on the round* that the gun I have (like,apparently, many others) is short-chambered. That just isn't something that sits right with me.
Oh -- and I remember I had one occasion when a round jammed in the gun .... removing THAT (live) round was...an interesting experience indeed. I think that was due to the short chamber but it was awhile ago and unfortunatly I didn't think to look on the round for clues.
Anyway ... I do not trust this gun.....I WANT to like it but I think after spending the $$ I am due a new one since Remington botched this so badly, IMHO.
*- And should have said, on many of the cases that were ejected. There were the initial "impacts" of rifling marks that looked like little scrapes. "SHORT" chambered ...yea, slightly, I'd say.
barnbwt
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Sounds like the 'lack of leade' rather than short (or miscut, to be more precise --pun intended) chamber is your issue. "Conveniently" enough, Remington ammo seems to be consistently on the low end of 9mm, dimensionally, which is why the R51's seem to play better with it. Basically, the guns really don't like fat profile bullets, to the point of not going fully into battery causing partial out of battery ignition (which is likely why you had one round fail to eject; the bolt was back against the lug out of battery, so the recoil imparted no momentum to the slide)
TCB
TCB
Tommygunn
Member
That could be the problem as well ... the thing is I have seen guns that have had catastrophic failures and I don't wanna be around one. Maybe the R-51 is safe ....the price point is not as high as some other, better guns, I know, but I still want to have some assurance that the gun will A.) function correctly, 'cause maybe I am shooting a black dot on a paper target -- but maybe it's some BG trying to off me, and B.) I want to do unto the BG, not myself.
I just think it's safer to take advantage of Remington's replacement offer and get a properly made version. As I said, I want to like the gun, it's ergos are great, so I really see little downside other than the wait.
I just think it's safer to take advantage of Remington's replacement offer and get a properly made version. As I said, I want to like the gun, it's ergos are great, so I really see little downside other than the wait.
JRH6856
Member
I don't think barnbwt is suggesting you not do that. But he is an engineer and likes to try and understand how and why things work of don't. I'm kind of that way myself. Both of us have seen a lot of wild misinformation based on wild speculation as to what is happening inside the R51. A lot of this is due to people who think the R51 works like any other locked breech semi auot they are used to. But it doesn't and this causes a lot of confusion.
With a Browning tilting barrel type system, such as the 1911, the pistor is in battery when the barrel lugs and slide lugs are fully engaged and this occures when the slide is fully closed with the boltface in cotact with the barrel. In the R51, the pistol is in batters when the breech block drops in place in front of the farme lug. At this point, the slide may not be fully closed and the even if it is, the breechblock can be almost 0.10" from the barrel.
This "play" in the breechblock is necessary for the Pederson action to cycle, and is safe, but looks very much like an unsafe out of battery condition to anyone who does not understand why it is there. For many, the explanation just convinces them the gun is unsafe.
As barn says, Remingonton ammo has deeply set bullets with no shank extending past the case mouth. This ammo will fully chamber in all weights I have fired, 115, 124 and 147. American Eagle, for one example, is not seated as deeply and about .05" of shank extends past the case mouth on most rounds. These rounds engrave on the lands when the bullet is seated. and may not allow the slide to fully closes, depending on how well the pistol is lubed and how may rounds have run thorough it.
When I first started shooting my R51, only Remington ammo would chamber reliably. After 500 rounds, it will take ammo that used to cause no ends of problems. The bullets still engrave on the lands, but as the action has smoothed up with use, there is less resistance to the slide closing from anything else, and the slide seems able to overcome the bullet resistance on the lands.
I now have problems causing my R51 to fail. This is a good thing. Once I see what ROC has done with the new production gins to address the first run problems, I will decide whether or not so send mine back. They may not do anything to the chamber. After all, it causes no problems with Remington ammo and the manual clearly states that use of any ammo other than Remington and Barnes may void the warranty. But if they don't do anything to the chambers leade, I may just keep what I have.
Tommygunn
Member
JRH6856 said:
Oh, I wasn't thinking barnbwt was suggesting I not send the gun back. And yes, I am aware that the R-51 operates of the Pederson principle and is not a Browning design.
At the time I was experiencing the problems I related above (which was just after I obtained the gun in early April) I was also aware of the design .... but, unfortunatly, did not take very good note of exactly what was going on inside the gun. I could kick myself now, for example, that I did not save any of the empty shells with the markings, so all I have is memory. And I tossed the jammed round away too -- it was a live round.
I am not an engineer like barnbwt but I still enjoy learning how weapons work. In fact, I believe anyone who owns a gun should have atleast a basic idea of how it works and, as well, how to take it apart and clean it and maybe making minor repairs.
I have a Uberti copy of the 1873 Winchester that I obtained a couple decades ago, and when an internal part failed I was able to obtain a replacement part and replace it just because of my familiarity with the internals of that particular carbine. I probably saved a little $$$ on labor that way.
It's also a good way of knowing whether or not a gun is being handled safely (I won't likely be the guy who simply removes the magazine from a semiauto handgun and then stupidly assumes the gun is now empty; I know such a weapon might easily have a round in the chamber!!!!!!!)
But, I will willingly admit I am not up to full speed on the R-51's action, outside of what I've read here and barnbwt's disection of it in another thread.
So, obvously, I am no way near barnbwt's expertise in firearms matters.
But, I do feel better about accepting Remington's replacement offer just to be on the safe side.
barnbwt
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"In fact, I believe anyone who owns a gun should have atleast a basic idea of how it works and, as well, how to take it apart and clean it and maybe making minor repairs."
That's *sniff* the most beautiful thing I've heard all day *sniff*. You'd be amazed what you see from many adults (it used to be just little kids) if you ask them to draw a mechanically accurate bicycle for cryin' out loud!
JRH, I wonder if the reason your chamber seems to be 'opening up' is due to sharp burs at the end of the chamber being worn down. Gilding is softer than steel, but will still peen down a knife edge of something as soft as barrel steel given enough time. Hopefully it's not because your frame/bolt are wearing down and able to function farther and farther out of battery (just joking here, but it is funny to think about how this gun kinda/sorta can't wear out into an unsafe condition like a 1911/SIG tilt barrel, so long as the locking surfaces don't round off. And the softer aluminum would tend to make me think a rounded lug would simply peen itself back to mate with the bolt in any case)
TCB
That's *sniff* the most beautiful thing I've heard all day *sniff*
. You'd be amazed what you see from many adults (it used to be just little kids) if you ask them to draw a mechanically accurate bicycle for cryin' out loud!JRH, I wonder if the reason your chamber seems to be 'opening up' is due to sharp burs at the end of the chamber being worn down. Gilding is softer than steel, but will still peen down a knife edge of something as soft as barrel steel given enough time. Hopefully it's not because your frame/bolt are wearing down and able to function farther and farther out of battery (just joking here, but it is funny to think about how this gun kinda/sorta can't wear out into an unsafe condition like a 1911/SIG tilt barrel, so long as the locking surfaces don't round off. And the softer aluminum would tend to make me think a rounded lug would simply peen itself back to mate with the bolt in any case)
TCB
JRH6856
Member
I wondered the same thing so I have been monitoring wear as best I can. The locking surfaces on the frame do not sho detectable rounding, and non REM-UMC rounds still reliably fail the plunk test with the same bright marks from the lands engraved on the bullets, so I don't think the chamber is opening up. The only detectable change is the disconnector's movement is smoother and I think the resulting reduction in resistance to the slide allows it to retain more momentum going forward so it is better able to force the bullet into the lands.
wally
Member
Isn't this a potential problem for higher pressures? The difference in that gap between the bullet and the rifling is the whole argument for not using 5.56 ammo in a .223 chamber.
1SOW
Member
If I handed you my CZ comp. pistol, and you tried to load a commercial JHP or Conical Nose FP, you might very well have the exact same issue. Not all bullet nose shapes will feed and seat at factory COLs. Each new (other than conventional ogive RN bullets) needs to be tested in the chamber for proper seating before use. The CZ does meet SAAMI specs.
I do agree that Remington should have no reason to "short-sheet" their R-51 chamber.
I'm hoping my R-51 is coming home this month.
JRH6856
Member
Potential, yes, but I haven't detected and difference in the tell-tales of fully chambered rounds. Rounds that don't fully chamber can bulge over the feed ramp (think Glock bulge). I'm firing standard pressure ammo and the R51 is +P rated. so there is some extra strength there.
JRH6856
Member
Interesting. I don't have much experience with CZs. That's good to know. My chamber is not short. it just has no leade/throat. Another noticeable thing about the chamber is that fired brass is distinctly "frosted" as if the chamber wall s are not polished. I don't see this in other chambers, except...
...I have been working up loads for my cousin's 722 Remington .244, and the fired cases show the same frosted appearance. This rifle was made in 1959 so I guess this is nothing new for Remington chambers.
1SOW
Member
JRH:
The lead.throat/"cone" is where contact can happen with any bullet that has too much straight sidewall above the case mouth. Eastern European pistols are designed to shoot "BALL ammo". The XD also falls into that category.
CZs will accept factory Speer 124 GDs, Rem. Golden Sabres, and Hornady XTPs with no problems at all---- some others are trial and error. Again, the visual key is the amount of straight sidewall above the case mouth. If they drop in, fully seat and can be spun/turned by hand, they are likely good-to-go.
The lead.throat/"cone" is where contact can happen with any bullet that has too much straight sidewall above the case mouth. Eastern European pistols are designed to shoot "BALL ammo". The XD also falls into that category.
CZs will accept factory Speer 124 GDs, Rem. Golden Sabres, and Hornady XTPs with no problems at all---- some others are trial and error. Again, the visual key is the amount of straight sidewall above the case mouth. If they drop in, fully seat and can be spun/turned by hand, they are likely good-to-go.
JRH6856
Member
[And that is also what I find with the R51. I guess Remington cuts Eastern European chambers.
Of course, some "ball ammo" has some "straight sidewall" above the case mouth. American Eagle and Blazer certainly do.
1SOW
Member
Those two have a traditional curved ogive and not enough straight sidewall to hit the cone/leade. Before I started reloading I used Wal-Mart ammo too.
I'm not misleading you about CZ 75s. My 75B has well over 40K rds on it when I bought my 75 Shadow Apr last year. It also gets shot about 250+ rds/week in comp. and practice. All with my reloads over quite a few years.
I'm not misleading you about CZ 75s. My 75B has well over 40K rds on it when I bought my 75 Shadow Apr last year. It also gets shot about 250+ rds/week in comp. and practice. All with my reloads over quite a few years.
JRH6856
Member
Most of the Blazer and AE chamber fine. 5-10 per box are problematic. But I reload too, and they are a good source for brass.Those two have a traditional curved ogive and not enough straight sidewall to hit the cone/leade. Before I started reloading I used Wal-Mart ammo too.
I'm not misleading you about CZ 75s. My 75B has well over 40K rds on it when I bought my 75 Shadow Apr last year. It also gets shot about 250+ rds/week in comp. and practice. All with my reloads over quite a few years.
I shoot a lot of 9Cone from Missouri Bullet. For my BHP I could load them long. When I got the R51, I had to verify that pressures wouldn't be too high and then reseated about 400 rounds.
1SOW
Member
OUCH!
I recently did similar wanting a little more PF with a few hundred---borrrr...ing.
JRH6856
Member
Yeah, seating deeper pushed the pressure to +P levels, which is fine for the R51, but not really good for the BHP.
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