New respect for 147-grain 9mm?

[minutemen1776]

A couple of days ago, someone resurrected an old thread from 2009 highlighting an excerpt from a Chuck Hawks reprinted article that was very critical of 147-grain 9mm loads. Yesterday, the moderator closed this thread that was "16 years old" (though the first post was from 2009 ) but invited a new thread about 147-grain loads. So, here it is.

Interestingly, this morning I clicked again on the Chuck Hawks article referenced in the old thread. Since the time I looked at it just a couple days ago, that article has been revised. (http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm) Does Chuck Hawks read THR posts? I don't know, but it's noteworthy that the revision removes the derogatory language about 147-grain 9mm loads. Now, both HST and Golden Saber 147-grain loads are included in the "good" category for 9mm defensive loads. Does that signal that 147-grain loads are finally getting a following, if not at least a little respect?

 

[Coal Dragger]

Unless you live in a cave you're probably aware that the new FBI duty load is the 9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot 2. So the FBI determined that to be their best all around choice in a 9mm loading from their testing.

 

[Deanimator]

I carry the Winchester White Box 147gr. JHP in all of my modern 9x19mm guns. It tested well for penetration and expansion at Box 'O Truth.

I love the 200gr. Gold Dot .45 JHPs, so if there's a 147gr. Gold Dot 9mm, I'll have to check that out.

 

[murf]

even chuckhawks can change his mind!

murf

 

[guyfromohio]

Well that's a relief.

 

[CDW4ME]

Based on Lucky Gunner testing in heavy clothed gel, some 147 gr. loads (HST) perform well even from a short barrel:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

[edrice]

even chuckhawks can change his mind!

murf

I thought to myself, that maybe it could be possible but after having read so much of Chuck Hawks' stuff back in the early years, it seemed a bridge too far and such a hopeless case. But I guess anyone is capable of change, even if they sounded so biased and in a deep, rigid rut with such antiquated material.

Just get a 1911 45acp then you can stop worrying about trying to make a little caliber act like a larger caliber. Why have a 147 HP When you can have 185 200 or 230 HP.

Now, see, after so many years this just gets so tiresome and starts to sound like the old Chuck Hawks regurgitated.

The FBI now just says that this is just plain so wrong. And, trust me, I've been there (and here) since the early years and used to think just like this. But times change, my friend, and so does technology. But some of the old timers just can't give it up. I'm an old timer too, but mine eyes have seen the light!

I was literally born into the 45 with my WWII B-24-pilot-father's Colt 1911 service 45acp pistol, which was passed down to me and I have been the biggest 45 fan of anybody, owning many of them down through the years. And as of several weeks ago, I no longer even own a 45 or any ammo.

Today 9mm can do everything your old hard-bucking 45s could do. And at less cost. Give it up. Times change. There's no use just exercising emotional-attachment on this anymore only to save a person's 45-dependent self-image. The 45ers will be a dying breed. It just takes time. And when the old-timers finally die out, so eventually will the concept. Granted, it will be a long, long time.

(here comes the rant...)

 

[C0untZer0]

The 147gr has been testing out the best in penetration and expansion for quite a while.

Winchester Ranger "T" Series RA9T and the 147gr Federal HST are awesome and have been for some time, I don't think they're just recently getting respect.

 

[jmr40]

9mm has never taken a back seat to 45 except in the minds of folks who hsve never looked.at the facts. The better 147 gr loads and bullets are.proving to work. Phil Shoemaker from Alaska has been testing 147 gr Hardcastle and the results gave him enough confidence to carry the round as backup to stop brown bear attacks. Earlier this month he had a chance to test the theory and it worked. Stopping a big brownie with a.9mm just feet from a client while fishing

 

[ThomasT]

Unless you live in a cave you're probably aware that the new FBI duty load is the 9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot 2. So the FBI determined that to be their best all around choice in a 9mm loading from their testing.

Dang, I had no idea. I gotta get outta my cave more often.

No, I really didn't know. But I don't keep track of the FBI.

 

[edrice]

Dang, I had no idea. I gotta get outta my cave more often.

No, I really didn't know. But I don't keep track of the FBI.

Probably a good orientation for anyone still a bit out of touch are these two videos. They are very well explained -

The FBI Returning to 9mm Ammo - Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy71umadb6k

The FBI Returning to 9mm Ammo - Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNfuF3JYWM8

 

[1KPerDay]

I didn't know either. My cave smells like feet.

 

[tipoc]

Does that signal that 147-grain loads are finally getting a following, if not at least a little respect?

Chuck Hawks opinion never had much following nor little respect...his opinions of the 147 gr. loads and bullets were old and dated when he originally wrote them. The idea that 147 gr. loads for the 9mm were in poor favor was never exactly true and dated by the time this piece was posted.

If I remember right the original piece by "anonymous" was published around 2010 or so (actually earlier as the thread on it is from 2009). Hawks originally reprinted it on his website with a preface. Seems that what he has done here is revise the article and revised his preface to it. In both cases omitting the original date and revising the text. Poor form.

tipoc

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What is the difference between the older GDHP bullet and the new G2 bullet. Does this make all my Speer ammo obsolete? :banghead:

 

[AlfonsDeWolf]

2 years ago I asked a Denver deputy what they carried.....the entire force, 147gr Gold Dots.

Check the crazy velocities of the Underwood 147's, Gold Dot I believe. Do I recall over 1200 fps?!

 

[Artofgolf]

What is the difference between the older GDHP bullet and the new G2 bullet. Does this make all my Speer ammo obsolete? :banghead:

(click on image to expand)

I'm pretty sure your old Speer ammo is fine.
AoG

 

[tipoc]

Speer ammo is fine.

tipoc

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Ah, I see. They filled the HP to improve performance, thank you.

 

[boricua9mm]

Jeez..the new article seems to have just as many issues as the old one, specifically when you get into the the break-downs by caliber. Statements like "I don't know what .357 Sig does better than .40" and ".357 Magnum is King" get dis-honorable mentions here. All of this stuff has been flushed out pretty well over the past 20 years, but it seems like the article was written by Rip Van Winkle.

I started carrying bonded 9mm JHPs back in 2001, in the form of Speer Gold Dots. I enjoyed receiving plenty of uneducated, down-playing comments from friends in Law Enforcement at that time. "Why don't you get a .40?" or "9mm is a poor choice." At the time, I thought it was strange that the civilian shooting community would be privy to bullet technology, but the Big Boys were not. It's almost as if Government and LE were willfully ignorant, and it has taken them 15 years to catch up. Maybe they were doubling down on the choice to go .40, I don't know. Joke's on them, I say.

 

[1goodshot]

Isn't a 147 gr 9mm load about the same as a 158 gr 38 special load?

 

[edrice]

Isn't a 147 gr 9mm load about the same as a 158 gr 38 special load?

That would depend upon a number of other factors.

But the FBI is not going back to the revolver. Neither am I. (although I still have them)

 

[edrice]

This caliber comparison image taken from one of the videos I posted links to earlier is quite telling -

 

[tipoc]

There are a number of good sources on the development of the 147 gr. loads for the 9mm. There are a number on line...

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/10/19/a-look-back-smith-wesson-hush-puppy/

http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/141168393229/smith-wesson-model-39-hush-puppy-smith

and in the book "Stopping Power" by Marshall and Sanow in their chapter on the 9mm.

In the 1960's the Navy SEALS operating in Viet Nam wanted a suppressed 9mm pistol for taking out sentries and guard dogs. They adopted and extensively modified the S&W M39 with a suppressor on it for the job. They also needed a subsonic 9mm round for the task and a 158 gr. fmj bullet was developed for this and called the Mark 144 round by the military. It did about 900 fps, so reported. The SEALS used these pistols, dubbed "Hush Puppy" and the M144 round for a number of years.

Following Viet Nam, in the mid to late 1970s the SEALS moved from the M39 to suppressed versions of the UZI and the H&K MP5 for similar roles where the "Hush Puppy" had been used. There were some accuracy issues with the 158 gr. loads so Winchester developed a new subsonic load for the suppressed MP5 and UZI.

The first load was a 140 gr. round called the Type B round. This had some issues regarding reliable cycling in the guns. So Winchester revised the load up to 145 gr.s and then to 147 gr.s by the early 1980s. It was labeled the Type L round. In it's hollowpoint form it became known as the Winchester Super Match Hollowpoint. These 147 gr loads worked well for the military in suppressed weapons.

Throughout the 1980s law enforcement was in transition to the 9mm from revolvers. Most loads were either 110, 115 gr. and rarely 124 gr. JHP rounds. Immediately following the 1986 Miami shootout that advance slowed down as the 115 gr. STHP took some blame for failing to stop one of the shooters in Miami. The FBI was advised to look for deeper penetrating rounds and immediately recommended the 147 gr. jhp by Winchester originally developed for suppressed pistols. A good number of police departments jettisoned the 9mm rounds that had been working in their guns and went to the 147 gr. Winchester round.

Now Winchester, to their credit issued a warning to law enforcement stating that the low velocity 147 gr. loads my not reliable cycle some 9mm pistols whose springs were set for lighter weight higher velocity rounds. This warning was mostly ignored. A number of departments began to have reliability issues when they transitioned from 110 and 115 gr loads to the 147. This was in the late 1980s. This is the origins of the warnings and worries about 147 gr. loads.

The 147 gr. loads were also criticized for poor expansion. This was in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Winchester and other manufacturers however worked very hard to make sure that the FBI criteria for penetration and expansion, once they were adopted, were met by all of their loads for the 9mm and other rounds. This meant across the board improvements in bullet design. Law enforcement contracts are lucrative so there was pressure to meet the FBI criteria.

There was at one time in the 1980s and 90s issues with the reliability of 147 gr. loads of the 9mm. Those were long ago addressed. by the turn of the century they were no longer issues.

tipoc

 

[edrice]

tipoc, a lot of insight in that post. Thanks for posting it.

Makes Chuck Hawks obsolete.

 

[azrocks]

I don't place nearly as much weight on the importance of bullet expansion as some people do. Center-mass hits have a high probability of encountering bone, which essentially turns expanding bullet designs into fast-moving question marks... you have no idea what they'll do. Even in soft tissue results are often far from those illustrated in controlled tests in artificial media.

From my readings as well as hunting observations, I choose ammo based on the assumption that it won't expand. If it does - bonus points - but I assume it won't. So for me, the 147 has always seemed a logical choice. Penetration is its strong point, which in a handgun caliber, is the only performance metric you can count on to consistently increase the probability of a fight-stopping hit.