Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber

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mete - that is my understanding. The 147 gr subsonic 9mm was developed for a specific military unit for one application - to shoot enemy sentries in the head using a supressed weapon. They needed a quiet and accurate round to do so.

It was not meant for widespread use and torso shots.

Some police dept. saw that the military was using the round and felt it must have been the greatest thing since sliced bread. They adopted it and it went downhill from there.

That is ancient history and a lot of changes have been made to this round.

Someplace on the www is a write-up dealing with the history of this misunderstood round.
 
"Why do 'experts' not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber?"

Well, as to the 147gn JHP load specifically, just a guess, ... but do you think its nickname, "the widow-maker" indicates why? :what:

As to the 9mm generally, ... hmmmm, let's see :scrutiny: ...

... how 'bout an iffy historical record* for instant incapacitation when used against armed assailants (i.e., a high failure-to-stop rate).








* Sorry, but appealing to "plentiful" European data which includes the roadside execution of dissidents, prisoners and refugees doesn't count as evidence of the 9mm's "stopping power." This is the U.S.A., where credible data on terminal ballistics is based on stand-up fights. :neener:
 
Riktoven,

I'm willing to bet that the vast majorty of "experts", and 99.9% of all people who dismiss the 9mm have never shot anyone or been shot themselves.
Click to expand...
You would guess wrong in my case but then I do not dismiss the 9mm; I just know there are more effective rounds and I know that among 9mm their are more effective bullet weights than 147 grains if specifically talking about Federal 147 grain Hydra Shock JHP. Heck, I do not even dsmiss the .25 Auto or .22 Short. I wonder though, do you carry a .25 Auto or .32 Auto or .380 for primary carry? If not why not? I mean you said it is 99% bullet placement. If so why bother carrying a 9mm as opposed to a .25 Auto, .32 auto or .380? I think any logical answer you give can go the same way for the 9mm when compared to rounds like the .40S&W or .45 Auto but I am interested in what you have to say.

Best regards,
Glenn B.
 
I love a spirited debate

I hope I did not start a caliber war when I posted this, I was just curious about why people disdained the the 9mm luger in general and 147 grain in particular. I really appericate the feed back on my question and look forward to learning more from you folks.
 
9mm 147-gr. load opinions boil down to two groups of shooters:

1. The old school folks who have outdated / 10 year old bullet performance in mind.

2. The new school folks who are amazed at how far 147-gr. loads have come and currently perform today.

The top 9mm 147-gr. loads have been enhanced to the point where they outperform the average 40 S&W load out there (with some 180-gr. being the exception).

Example of the top two 9mm SD loads:

* Double Tap's 147-gr. +P Gold Dot load is under SAMMI specs (only 200 psi over standard ammo) and yet it achieves 1,135 fps in a Glock 17, using specially blended cooler burning powders not commercially available.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=121

* Winchester Ranger T (Talans) in 147-gr. +P at 990 fps (Glock 19 - 4" pipe) consistently achieve around 15" penetration and almost 3/4" expansion in clothed gelatin tests. This load also outperforms many 357 Sig and 45 Auto loads as well, but not all.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=419125&goto=newpost

Time to get with the times! Out with the old technology and in with the new! :rolleyes:
 
I like those numbers - esp. the Double Taps. If I carried a 9mm, would check them out - although I was leaning towardfs the 124s.

When you say these rounds "out perform" other ammo - what do you mean?

Alot of the info I see shows the .40 and .45 have simliar penetration, with wider expansion (esp. the .45). I have also seen some issues with the Ranger round - seperation and lack of expansion thru denim.
 
I gave their 230s .45 a try - not bad - a little stout in my lightweight Commander, but should be OK in a full-size. I imagine these rounds would have a simliar effect on a smaller 9mm - more recoil, and is it necessary?

I would like to see some terminal numbers though - too much velocity on a bullet not designed for it can limit the penetration (which is why the extra fps in 147 may be attractive).
 
How does 15.25" of penetration and .95" expansion for the Double Tap 230-gr. you tried?

Steve

P.S. Shorter barreled 45's can benefit from heavier recoil springs for $7.50 at Double Tap.
 
Penetration Tests of all Double Tap loads, except the 9mm's which were just released 8/15/05 (Mike McNett of Double Tap can get you the 9mm figures):

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"


DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"


DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"


DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"


http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336612
 
I didn't read all the replies in this thread so if I am repeating data that's already been covered excuse me. The 147 gr. bullet became popular after the F.B.I. decided the Miami Massacre was the result of a 9mm 115gr. Silvertip underpenetrating as a result failing to stop the scumbag Mr. Platt. They decided as a result of this to go to the 10mm. When problems were encountered with the S&W 10mm auto's they switched to Sigs firing 9mm bullets. They felt the 147 gr. bullets were the way to go to get sufficient penetration. The early 9mm round of choice was the 147 gr. Winchester OTM (open tipped match) round. It was designed to be fired in suppressed MP5's. Since bullets had to travel below the speed of sound to be as quiet as possible they experimented with different rounds. The 115gr. and 124gr. bullets lost alot of performance when dropped below 1000 f.p.s.. They went with the heavier bullet to still get good penetration because of the bullets mass helpe to make up for the lost speed. Plus the rounds were very accurate in the MP5's. They were not a good design for handguns. Because of bad designat the time most jhp's had to move over 1000 f.p.s. to have any chance of expanding. Thus they tended to not expand well from handguns. Well because of the F.B.I. protocol that was developed to give some useable measure of bullet performance we have far better designs. Each bullet weight is optimized for it's weight and speed. According to Winchesters own data their 147gr. Ranger round outsells their 127 grain round in law enforcement. By both testing and street experience the 147 gr. Winchester Ranger is considered to be the most effetive 9mm load made. Although I respect much of Mr. Ayoobs teachings his data regarding the best new 147gr. 9mm loads is just plain wrong. He did a report awhile back on a large West Coast police agency that uses the 92F Beretta with the Winchester Ranger 147gr. load. They are delighted with it's performance. Since it did not fit his theories he made a lame exuse to the effect that the long barreled Berettas probably gave the bullet enough velocity to reliably expand. It is not velocity. It is bullet design. Winchesters 127 gr. +p+ round is also very effective. But from both the real world and accepted testing it does not penetrate as deep or expand any better than the 147gr. version. Their are still those that believe that higher energy figures make for a more effective pistol round. Their is a threshold where this is true. From .38 Special in a short barreled revolver what little energy you get fro them must be maximized. The .38 Special now has a couple of bright spots from good bullet design for short barrels. But the .22, .25, .32, and .380 just don't have enough energy to get both deep penetration and good expansion. From .38 Special in a 4" barrel on up good performance in many different handgun bullet weights and speeds may now be accomplished. New 147gr. 9mm rounds like the Ranger, Gold Dot, and Golden Saber rounds give as good a performance as the high velocity middle weights and better performance than almost all the 115 gr. bullets. Wihout the added recoil and wear and tear on your gun. Their is even a joke among many LEO's that refer to the 147gr. rounds as "West Coast bullets" in reference to Mr. Ayoobs claims. Since according to him they only seem to work there. I don't know why he hlds so tightly to the 115 gr. +P+ rounds. Some do work obviusly. But you still get better all around performance from the middle and heavy weight bullets.
 
I'm STILL missing the 357 in a 4'' as the pole sitter. AND you can actually get decent shot placement with a revolver; which I know most of you fellas probably loathe. Anyways, I'm in the shot placement camp- I often actually carry a 950bs in 22 SHORT!!! It's the long barreled version, looks like a mini luger, and I can actually hit a 1" circle at 5 feet very quickly. It'll work, oh yeah- Sandy has the P-12 in 45 (concealed)or the Glock 17 (on her duty belt), a BADGE often is a great weapon, and has tremendous penetration capabilities. :rolleyes:
 
Back in teh erly 1980's, when my interest in handguns took-off, I read every gun magazine I could get my hands on. THe big experrts favored the 1911 in .45, with the Sig 220 being called the best DA auto in their opinions. They favored the .45 because even in ball form, it was bigger than a 9mm which, as they described it, was unreliable in terms of expansion. The real battle was between the .45 and teh .357 magnum for "king o fthe hill" title. That was fun reading, especially since it mixed a caliber was and the revolver vs. auto battle, all in one blow-out.

Here we are, some 20 years later, and much has changed. The auto is undeniably the majority's weapon of choice for combat use. The caliber war still continues, but the field of ammunition making has leveled the field somewhat. The 9mm round has been redesigned to expand more reliably out of the shorter barrels of the CCW pieces.

So, in a nutshell, what you have among many people is a hold-over prejudice against the 9mm, and especially the 147 grn. JHP, from incidents 20 years ago. It's an apples and oranges thing.
 
We use the Ranger 147 in the LASD....seems to work okay for us...and the LAPD...and San Diego....expands quite nicely too...and not just from our 92fs but our shorter barreled off duty guns.....Masaad who?
 
Quote

You would guess wrong in my case but then I do not dismiss the 9mm; I just know there are more effective rounds and I know that among 9mm their are more effective bullet weights than 147 grains if specifically talking about Federal 147 grain Hydra Shock JHP. Heck, I do not even dsmiss the .25 Auto or .22 Short. I wonder though, do you carry a .25 Auto or .32 Auto or .380 for primary carry? If not why not? I mean you said it is 99% bullet placement. If so why bother carrying a 9mm as opposed to a .25 Auto, .32 auto or .380? I think any logical answer you give can go the same way for the 9mm when compared to rounds like the .40S&W or .45 Auto but I am interested in what you have to say.

Best regards,
Glenn B.

-------------------------------------------------------

I don't go smaller than 9mm for three reasons.

1.) Rimmed cartridges in an autoloader are a no no.
2.) No one makes a .380 that holds 16+1 rounds.
3.) No one has spent millions designing reliable bullets for anything under 9mm

I carry a P99 every day.
 
Of course you could go try some of these tests yourself. But that'd be work. It's just easier to argue about it. :scrutiny:
 
Dave Richards:

Thanks a million!!! for the 147-gr. overview. :) It's one reason that contributed to my username's selection!
 
147 -

THANKS! I appreciate the posting on the Double Tap terminal numbers! Wow - those .45 (and 10mm) expansion values are incredible!
 
I think that Winchester's 9mm vs .357 Sig gelatine test is misleading. We can clearly see that the 9mm penetrates deeper and expands at least as well as the .357 Sig, but what we can't see from the data is the wound cavity diameter or volume. If we could see those gelatin samples I am sure that the .357 Sig would show much more trauma. The extra kinetic energy has to go somewhere....
 
I think that Winchester's 9mm vs .357 Sig gelatine test is misleading. We can clearly see that the 9mm penetrates deeper and expands at least as well as the .357 Sig, but what we can't see from the data is the wound cavity diameter or volume. If we could see those gelatin samples I am sure that the .357 Sig would show much more trauma. The extra kinetic energy has to go somewhere....

---------------------------------------------------------------

Heat, light and radiation are all energies that can cause death, so it's easy to get hung up on energy.

Kinetic energy by nature though doesn't kill, it simply is. A mass with significant kinetic energy can cause a fatal wound, but the kinetic energy itself isn't the wounding mechanism. The wounding mechanism is the destruction of living tissue.

I'm not saying energy isn't important at all, because if the bullet doesn't have enough it won't even break the skin let alone penetrate muscle and bone. Also that energy is used to expand the bullet. Modern bullet design however allows the bullets to expand reliably with less energy, especially in 9mm where reasearch has been far more extensive.

More is always better in my book. 147gr. is better than 115gr. 230gr. (.45) is better than 147gr. (9mm). I don't carry a .45 because I consider myself to be a good shooter, and don't plan on missing the double tap. Two 9mms are better than 1 .45 by my math, and as long as the 10rnd G30 is the closest thing to a high capacity .45 I can conceal, I'm sticking to the 9.
 
Soft tissue is very elastic. The temporary stretch cavity producd by handgun bullets is simply not enough to push most tissue beyond it's elastic limits. In other words almost as soon as the hangun bullet passes throuh tissue it snaps back to roughly the size of the projectile that has just passed through it. Usually a fast, light, high energy rounds main advantage over a bigger round is a flatter trajectory than a larger, slower, bullet over a longer distances. This might be of some advantage to someone in a rural setting. But then as in most instances you are better off going to a rifle for longer ranges (and shorter for that matter). What some seem to be missing here is that the 124 gr. .357 Sig round for instance is still designed to meet the F.B.I. protocol. The bullet is designed to mushroom and penetrate at the higher velocities. The 147 gr. 9mm Gold Dot is designed to meet this same criteria at it's lower velocity. Thicker jacket, wider hollowpoints, and so on depending on the bullet. Again those that treat gunshot wounds report in the major service calibers they can see no great difference between 9mm, .45 or whatever. They usually don't know what round someone has been hit with until the bullet has been removed. An exception are the very small calibers and their small entrance wounds. These wounds are so small the skin will sometimes close around the entrance wound making the bullet very hard to find. Even some of the gun rag writers are finally accepting these facts. I may believe lighter, faster handgun bullets with high energy ratings are better. I may also believe the world to be flat as many did hundreds of years ago. But as we grew in our knowledge we learned better. But their still is a Flat Earth Society.
 
Well, I like the 147 grainers. But I am no ballistic data expert. Nor did I sleep at...last night. I like them simply because all of my 9mm hand guns shoot 147 grainers very accurately. In other bullet weights there are distinct differences in accuracy between hand gun, bullet weight, and specific ammo. For some reason 147 grain 9mm ammo shoot consistently well in all of them (including the cost effective Winchester White Box) whereas others do not. It is just that simple for me.
 
Last month, Wally World was had a lot of their WWB 9mm ammo on clearance,(115gr WinClean,147gr TCMC) for $5.00 for 50 rnd box. I bought several boxes of WWB 147 gr JHP's (USA9JHP2) that had been mismarked. My CZ's really like this ammo; very accurate and reliable. I have no idea how this ammo expands but I wouldn't hesitate to carry it for self defense. Any comments or experience with this load?
 
The best reason in the world!!!

Let me tell you something. Both the Nazis and the Soviets knew something about killing. And before you say they only used the pistols to shoot prisoners in the back of the head, ask yourselves if you truly believe in that.
Click to expand...

If the 9mm was good enough for Adolf Hitler, then it ought to be good enough for you!!! :rolleyes: :banghead:
 
"Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber"

Just remember that "ex" is a has-been, and "spurt" is a drip under presssure!

I have but one 9MM in a Beretta Vertec, and I do wish it was accurate with the 147 grain loads. However, this has not proved to be the case with my particular weapon. It runs along really happy with 155-124-125 grain handloads near max, so thats what I run. Can't kill what you can't hit I guess.
 
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