New revolver shooter-Colt or Remington

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To bad this is evolving into a mine is better thread, back to the OP.
New revolver shooter-Colt or Remington

Take a look at cabela's, they have several C&B revolvers on sale at this time. The brass frame open top is about as cheap as I have seen for used model. Nothing wrong with the brass frame, just keep the charge reasonable.

I shoot Remingtons and tinker with Colts .

Your missing half the fun.

I'm fairly new into the BP thing too. I bought a used 1851 .44 with brass frame last year (someone called it a "Reb Colt Navy"?), and then just last month I found a really nice 30 year old 1858 Remington.

The Colt really does seem to handle and balance better, but I prefer the Remington because I like not having to deal with the wedge.

I was also told to not use more than about 15 grains of powder in the Colt, or the brass frame would stretch. Any truth to this?
.

wedge? What's to deal with? You insert it and shoot.
I keep my brass frames under a 20gr charge and have not had any signs of stretching or deforming the recoil shield.
 
I shoot and enjoy both action types.

You'll want to print this out for further study and reference. It's long. Seems that the ol' desert cat just can't write a short note anymore. But then, it's a somewhat complicated subject that requires more than a few words.

For the shooter new to cap and ball revolvers:

Do NOT buy a brass-framed gun. Buy a steel-framed gun. Brass may look nice but it's decidedly weaker than steel. It won't last nearly as long as the steel models, especially if you use full charges.
If you use very light loads, you can baby a brass-framed revolver along and it will last for decades. But then, you're limiting yourself.
Buy a steel-framed gun because, typically, the steel framed guns are better quality. For whatever reason, factories seem to spend far less time on fit and finish on their brass-framed guns.

If you can afford it, buy an Uberti-made gun. The Piettas can be good, but their quality is inconsistent. Since you likely don't know what to look for to determine quality in these revolvers, buy an Uberti and you'll almost certainly have an exceptionally well made gun, built to last.
Ubertis also have slightly deeper rifling than other makes, which helps accuracy.

For your purposes, get an Ubert-made 1858 Remington, .44 caliber, either authentic, fixed sights or modern, adjustable sights, depending on your desire.
Stainless steel is urged if you're the type to put off gun cleaning.

Advantage Remington:
Stronger -- A moot point if you only use black powder or Pyrodex, but Hodgdon 777 is a higher-pressure propellant. It is not recommended for Colt, open-type revolvers.

Better sights - For more precise shooting, at targets or as required by hunting, the Remington's sights are better. The Colt's sights are rather primitive. If the front sight on the Remington is dovetailed into the barrel, it can be drifted sidways to ensure better alignment on target
Many Remington reproductions have overly tall front sights, causing the Remington to shoot low. This is easily fixed by lightly and meticulously filing down the front sight until the ball's point of impact meets the sights as aligned.
However, don't make such permanent changes to your sight until you've experimented and found the most accurate load for your purposes (hunting, target, ball vs. conical bullet, etc.)
Once you find the ideal load, then you can begin to very slowly adjust your sights to match where it hits, at whatever distance you want.

Cap jamming - There is less propensity for the Remingtons to get cap fragments into the action, binding it.

Fewer parts to break or lose.

Better designed rammer, giving slightly greater leverage than the Colt. But this point is moot; if you need that much leverage then you're doing something wrong.


Disadvantage Remington

More difficult to get the hammer spring back in the frame, when reassembling. Not a big deal, but the Colt is a piece of cake by comparison.

Not as well balanced as the Colt.

Heavier than comparative Colt models; the Walker and Dragoons being an exception, though. They're as heavy or heavier than the Remington.

Larger than comparative Colts such as the 1860 or 1851. But again, the Walker and Dragoons are larger than the Remington.

Not as forgiving as the Colt if you make a mistake loading (more on this later).

Too short of a rammer, requiring filler wads to take up space in the chamber when target loads are used, or forcing the shooter to use heavier loads to occupy that space. You must NEVER allow airspace between the projectile and powder, regardless of the make.

Smaller cylinder pin -- Because it is much smaller in diameter than the Colt's, and has no annular grease grooves, fouling causes it to bind much sooner than the Colt's.


Advantage Colt

Smaller than the Remington.

Lighter than the Remington.

Point-shoots and balances much better. Exhibition shooters, the kind that twirl guns and put on shows, have long said that the 1851 Colt Navy is the best-balanced revolver ever made. Its balance with the 7-1/2 inch barrel is about as perfect as you can get.

Longer rammer, to push the ball or projectile farther down into the chamber if you use lighter charges.

Larger cylinder pin to shrug off fouling longer. The Colt cylinder pin has grease grooves in it, where foulilng can get pushed into. The Remington cylinder pin is smooth and fouling has no place to go, causing binding sooner.

Colt 1860 has generous room around the rammer and cylinder, to help get conical bullets started in the chamber. The 1851 doesnt' have as much room and it can get tricky, especially the long Lee conical bullet.

More forgiving with poorly assembled loads -- Sooner or later, you'll add too much powder and try to ram a ball down. It won't go down far enough into the chamber to clear the rear of the barrel.
What to do?
With the Remington, you have to remove the cylinder, use a wooden or brass scraper (never steel or plastic, to avoid sparks from percussion or static electricity) and remove the excess powder from the back of the chamber. Then you replace the nipple, ram the ball further down after you've removed enough powder, and cap the cylinder.
The Colt is much easier to deal with if you get a high ball that can't be rammed any farther. Simply remove the entire barrel assembly so there is nothing but the grip frame and cylinder.
Cock the revolver to align with the bothersome chamber, while pulling the cylinder backward against the frame so it won't fall forward.
When aligned, the bolt in the cylinder notch will hold it in place. Point the revolver downrange and shoot out the troublesome ball.
The job is done.
It is very important to keep your hand and fingers away from the front of the cylinder when you do the above. Should the hammer slip, you could easily shoot off the finger tip put a ball through your hand.
Remember to keep your hand clear of the front of the cylinder while pulling back on it. Not much pressure is needed.
Of course, do all of the above downrange. You don't want to turn to the side and pull on the cylinder, endangering other shooters to the side of you.

Disadvantage Colt

Lousy sights -- just a brass bead on the end of the barrel and a notch in the hammer nose. Both are not as easily adjustable as the Remington's.
Original and reproduction Colts almost always shoot high out to 25 or 50 yards. This requires replacing the front sight with a taller sight -- a job best left to a gunsmith familar with the task.

More parts to break or lose after disassembly.

Cap fragments tend to get dragged backward off the nipple by the hammer, and dropped into the interior mechanism, causing jams.
To help avoid this, pinch the cap into an ellipitical shape before placing on the nipple. This will help the cap to cling to the nipple, even after firing. This is not foolproof, however, so watch for cap fragments that might drop into the mechanism.
Some folks cock their Colt back over their shoulder, to let any fragments fall free. I don't care for this because you're cocking a loaded revolver right by your ear, and may endanger bystanders behind you.
Myself, I keep the Colt pointed downrange and turn it upside down -- my thumb pointing at the ground -- while cocking. This allows cap fragments to fall clear and doesn't endanger my hearing or bystanders.

For the beginner
I suggest the Remington 1858 in .44 caliber.
Why .44 and not .36?
Speer, Hornady and others typically make balls in three sizes for cap and ball revolvers: .451, 454 and .457 inch.
Avoid the .451 inch balls and use the .454 inch balls. They'll seal in the chamber better and give better accuracy. You can even use .457 inch balls if that's all you can find. Each ball is swaged to the proper diameter when it's rammed into the chamber.

Alas, most manufacturers only make the .36 cap and ball revolver balls in one size: .375 inch. This is, in my experience, too small for proper sealing or good accuracy. It is best to use balls of .378 or even better, .380 inch. But obtaining these sizes will almost certainly require ordering, unless you have an excellent black powder store near you.
I haven't seen a black powder shop carry .380 balls in over 20 years.

For the beginner, the Remington .44 is simpler to disassemble for cleaning. Loading each type of revolver requires the same process.

Whether you want to get one with target sights, or the more authentic fixed sights, depends on the degree of authenticity you want.
For the beginner, I'd suggest target sights. I'd also suggest stainless steel, since beginners tend to procrastinate cleaning their revolvers.
Beginners who buy blued (carbon steel) models often find rust spots on their revolver because they put off cleaning. Stainless steel will rust, after a time, but is more forgiving.

But ultimately, if the cap and ball revolver bug bites you, you'll later want more. And those others will almost certainly be the Colt pattern.
You'll find that both models have advantages and disadvantages.
Myself, if I feel like being authentic for the day, I'll shoot my Colt 1851 Navy and live with its crude sights -- though point shooting can be amazingly accurate with the Colt design.
If I'm in the mood to make small groups in targets out to 25 or 50 yards, I'll take the Remington .44 or .36.

I cast my own .380 balls so obtaining the proper-sized balls for .36 caliber is not a task.

Conclusion: First-time cap and ball revolver shooters
Remington 1858
Modern target sights or authentic fixed sights, depending on your choice.
.44 caliber
8-inch barrel for better balance and sight alignment

Don't forget to wear hearing and eye protection. And never let anyone stand to the side while you're shooting, as slivers of lead and particles of hot grease or wads (if you use greased felt wads between ball and powder, which I think you should for better accuracy) can fly out from the space between the cylinder barrel. These fragments can cause injury to bystanders.
Black powder is LOUD, so wear hearing protection.
Protect your eyes as well, from flying fragments. I've never been hit by fragments, but then I've taken precautions. I hope my luck continues.

Lastly, never EVER put smokeless powder in your cap and ball sixgun. Never. They are not designed to handle such pressures. The proliferation of cartridge cylinders for some cap and ball sixguns has caused some to wonder.
The answer is that the cylinders made for cartridges are built for those pressures. Another aspect, which few realize, is that the cap-over-nipple system is not designed for the higher pressures of smokeless powder.
Typically, when smokeless powder is loaded in a cylinder with nipples and caps, the hammer is blown back and the cap fragments blow straight back into the shooter's eyes, head or chest.
Anyone who tells you that it's okay to put smokeless powder in a cap and ball sixgun is a damned fool.
I've been shooting these guns since 1971. I know whereof I speak.

One last message: The old cap and ball sixguns are not toys. Our ancestors were far from hindered by these pistols. They will easily kill a man and should be treated with the same respect and rules of safety as any modern arm.

The "ugly cat" from deep in the remote Utah desert has spoken. :D

Have fun with whatever cap and ball sixgun you decide to buy.
 
Darn good job Gatofeo. Of course there are home made remmedies to cure the fouling problems of both the Remingtons and the Colt Cylinder pin and arbor problems...but those are after the facts that you have so eloquently stated.
Thanks for justifiying my bidding on another Remington :O)

SG
 
I don't disagree with Gatofeo's evauations, but If I decided I wanted to go to a stainless steel, adjustable sighted, .44 caliber cap & ball revolver made on the Remington pattern, I'd take a hard look at a Ruger Old Army - there are still a lot of them around.

That said, I sort of like the challange that comes from mastering those revolvers that duplicate the ones that made such an impact on our frontier history. For that matter I still remember the thrill I got when I was much younger and would shoot the real thing. :)

Of course we can't do that anymore can we... :evil:

Incidentally Dixie Gun Works (www.dixiegunworks.com) still offers .380 round balls.
 
If stainless steel construction and adjustable sights were a substantial consideration I wouldn't be worried about the feel and balance of a different revolver that didn't have these features.

When it comes to shooting the Ruger is, in my opinion, better than the other revolvers, but it is a modern gun in all respects. Part of the charm in shooting cap & ball revolvers is mastering a weapon used during our frontier era and the Civil War. Otherwise I might as well forget about all of this messy black stuff and get out my much-loved 1st issue Ruger Blackhawk .357.

But for those who want the very best there is, without having the slightest interest in the historical aspects, the Ruger is unquestionably the way to go. :cool:
 
Well I like the ROA as I have two of them one in Stainless one is Blued, both with adjustable sights and 7 1/2" bbls.
I like the Stainless one better as is all SS, the trigger is twice the width and grooved, the grip feels better not as squared or fat and seems a hair longer than the newer Blued one. The newer Blued model ROA is not all steel the whole one piece triggerguard and grip are aluminum and coated with like a paint, and the trigger is skinny like a Colt Navy. If the grip were that of a Walker or Dragoon, a Remington, or a Rogers&Spencer I'd like it better.
I do have a R&D Conversion Cyl. for them in Stainless and it stays loaded with five till I decide whether or not to cut it for hammer stops.
I still prefer the Remingtons to the ROAs for my likin'...but I do say that the ROAs are a hell of a Revolver...

SG
 
More difficult to get the hammer spring back in the frame, when reassembling. Not a big deal, but the Colt is a piece of cake by comparison.

This is simply not true. Loosen the hammer spring preload screw and the spring literally falls out of the gun.

Heavier than comparative Colt models; the Walker and Dragoons being an exception, though. They're as heavy or heavier than the Remington.

My Uberti Remington weighs 2.78 pounds; my Uberti 1860 Civilian (steel backstrap) weighs 2.68. So you're right, but personally, I'd hardly call a less-than-two-ounce weight difference significant.
 
[Loosen the hammer spring preload screw and the spring literally falls out of the gun.
/QUOTE]

In what Remington replica?

I have two, from differnt makers, and neither one does this.
 
Uberti 1858. I loosen the preload screw (to the extent that it's no longer touching the mainspring), turn the gun horizontal so that the left side of the grip frame is facing the floor, and the base of the spring will fall right out.
 
Yes, it is.

Uberti beefed it up because they started selling replicas of .45LC conversions using the same frame.

Hmmm...

Now I want a new one. The Remmie spring is annoying on mine. A Rogers and Spencer is FAR worse, but I'd love to have one that just falls out.:)
 
I just assumed they were all that way...it's the easiest mainspring to install/remove of my four guns; my 1851 and 1860 are a little more work, and my Walker...well, I've replaced its spring twice.
 
Ya had to go say that easy mainspring thing...I have 10 and soon to be 11 of these tomorrow...Pietta, Uberti, ASM, ASP, Euro Arms, & Santa Barbaras. Most of these I have to beat the mainspring from the frame...and pry to get back in. But I have gotten used to it. :O)
Now I'll have to have a Forged frame Uberti too. Is the frame color case hardened? Or Blued?

SG
 
Granted the Main Spring in the Remington copies are more of a pain than a 51 or 60 Colt copy but with a little work & use the spring screw for what it's fore you can make it fairly easy.
 
Voodoochile do you mean turn the screw into the mainspring...it greates more tension on the spring, but does it straighten it out more at the base so it would come out easier? But would have to wear a steel pot and yell fire in the hole?

Never thought of that till now...

SG
 
Smokin Gun:

No, what I do is use a file on the ledge of the frame "on the right side that the spring always seem to never want to get past" to slightly bevel it to make the spring slip into it's recess a little easier then I have the tention screw just touching the spring for the right amount of hammer feel but still good striking for reliable ignition.
 
Hodgdon 777 is a higher-pressure propellant. It is not recommended for Colt, open-type revolvers.

Not to be an antagonist to Gatofeo, but I've never seen this anywhere before, from Hogdon or anywhere else. I've used 777 exclusively in my open-top colts because that's about all I can get around here. Perhaps Gatofeo being overly cautious?

You do have to reduce your charges 15% or so with 777 if you want to stay with an equivalent BP load. Perhaps this is what he is referring to.

That said, Gatofeo's posts are printed out/saved on my computer for reference... I suggest you do the same.
 
I think the new forged Uberti/Remington frames are blued - which would be historically correct. Remington always blued their frames, unless they were special ordered to be plated.

The problem with 777 is not the fualt of the propellent, but rather that shooters forget to reduce the charges. :eek:
 
There are other finishes available - Uberti's web site shows a cased frame:

Rem1858cblue.jpg


And Cimarron will do other finishes too (charcoal blue, 'original' white).
 
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