new rifle, reasonable price, great accuracy

[Omni04]

i saw a thread by nobite, but my request is a little different.

My experience with a rifle is kind of short. I own a ruger 10/22 and just obtained a new scope for it. While at the shooting range i relized just how fun an accurate scope-equipped rifle is!

now i know the 10/22 can be upgraded with several after-market parts, but i was interested in maybe obtaining a new rifle. I want something that is a little higher power, which i guess would be a .223 and under $500.

I have heard nothing but good things about the ar-15, but the most important thing i am looking for is extremley good accuracy. Would the ar-15 be a greta next step, a little more power, and a lot more accuracy? What kind of scope would i have to invest in? Also should i think about buying a rifle stand for the range?

sorry if im being kind of vague, being new to rifling im not quite sure what to ask


*edit* forgot to clarify, semi-automatic.

 

[nico]

I don't think you'll get what most people would call "extremely good accuracy" out of a $500 semi-auto centerfire rifle. You might be able to find an Olympic Arms AR for under $500 though.

 

[Waffen]

Like the above poster said, If accuracy is the primary concern you won't find it in a sub $500 semi-auto rifle. If you find the right deal, and if you buy used, then maby it would happen. Add to it the cost of a scope you are going to need (something above $100), it would be pretty hard.


Sounds to me like you would be a prime canedate for a bolt gun. You can pick a savage 12xx or a Savage 10xx, or the Remington 700 ADL's ($350) for pretty cheap. With any of thoes you should be able to put a bullet just about anywhere you want.

An ADL with mounts/rings and a scope should be right at $500 if you shop around. They are clearing them out for the SPS line that is replacing them in 05.

 

[Omni04]

i apologize, being new i guess my version of extremley good accuracy isn't the same as anybody elses

im shooting a factory ruger 10/22 right now so anything that is a step up from that would be great. I was kind of confused at ar-15's because so many people make them. if i found one around $500 is it safe to assume it is a junk gun?


*edit* on another side note, im not adding the scope in with the price of the rifle, im figuring it in seperate

 

[CB900F]

Omni04;

I'll heartily second Waffen's opinion. Get a bolt gun in .223, put decent glass on it & have a blast. I'm currently setting up a Daly mini-mauser LHB in .223. As it's a lefty, I did exceed your budget. However, other guns are available, & I'd certainly look at the Tikka's. The Bushnell Legend 5-15 A/O mildot scope does an excellent job & is available for well under $200.00 these days.

Friday, under some fairly lousy conditions, I shot under MOA with a load I'd worked up. A single 5 shot group is too limited a sampling to make any general statements about, but the gun certainly shows promise.

Another thing about getting any semi-auto gun in .223 that you may wish to think about; unless you handload on a progressive press, you gonna be broke buying ammo for it.

There is a very special feeling involved in making a tough shot - and knowing that you can do it again.

900F

 

[Omni04]

with that scope and rifle, how accurate would it be? How many yards out can i expect to get a 5 shot 1-1.5 inch group?

 

[Jim Watson]

Agreed: Cheap, accurate, autoloader ----- Pick TWO.

While you are at it, and since you seem to be on a tight budget, check the cost of ammunition.
WWB (Winchester White Box, the USA label) Remington UMC, and Federal American Eagle are the least expensive US made brands. I have heard that the WWB hollowpoint is quite accurate, but the FMJ is fair to poor. AE has a good reputation, I don't know about UMC. The foreign stuff is very spotty.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well you could spend $1,000 on a match-grade AR and get good accuracy out of it. Or you could spend $200 on an M-39 Finnish Mosin-Nagant and get sub MOA groups from bullets that hit twice as hard as any .223

 

[Eightball]

Here it comes....

...the SKS suggestion . Lots of gun for little price, easy to find ammo, it's a semi, reliable as a Mack truck (just guessing, I have no experience with Mack's myself ), and is accurate enough to be fun. Other than that, I'd have to agree with Jim Watson's analogy about firearms--Cheap, accurate, autoloader, pick the two most desireable--and the SKS fits the bill very nicely. And, you'd have enough money left from a Yugo to buy several cases of ammo. And, odds are that you'll love the thing, as most people will agree .

 

[Omni04]

i was fooled! I was tolf my ruger 10/22 was cheap/accurate/and an autoloader!

out of curiosity what does MOA stand for? Also is SKS like AR-15? Where theres several companies who supply them? Can i find SKS in .223 or find a conversion kit?

and sorry i ask this again, but for my price range, what is a realistic distance to expect? Is 150 yard too far? Will i get closer to 200? I havn't really had muhc experience outside of my ruger

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't know of any SKS's in .223. But why do you want to shoot .223?

MOA="Minute of Arc" or "Minute of Angle", equal to one inch at one hundred yards.


"This unit is commonly found in the firearms industry and literature, particularly that concerning high-powered rifles. It is popular because 1 MOA almost exactly subtends one inch at 100 yards, a traditional distance on target ranges. A shooter can easily readjust his or her rifle scope simply by measuring the distance in inches the bullet hole is from the desired impact point, and adjusting the scope that many MOA in the opposite direction. Most target scopes designed for long distances are adjustable in quarter (1/4) or eighth (1/8) MOA 'clicks.' One eighth MOA is equal to approximately an eighth of an inch at 100 yards or one inch at 800 yards.

Sometimes, a firearm will be 'measured' in MOA. This simply means that under ideal conditions, the gun is capable of repeatedly producing a group of shots that fit into a circle, the diameter of which can be subtended by that amount of arc. (E.g.: a "1 MOA rifle" should be capable, under ideal conditions and when locked into a vise, of shooting a 1-inch group at 100 yards.) However, ideal performance in a ballistics lab is often very different from real-world results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_arc

 

[Omni04]

well honestly i don't know much about rifle calibers (only handguns). i wanted cheap ammo, but i also want something other than a .22

people say .223 is really cheap, but if i can find .50 for the same price, maybe i will go with that!

 

[Cosmoline]

The SKS and AK-47 clones are typically chambered in 7.62x39, which is even cheaper than .223 and has more real-world applications such as medium-size game hunting. The 7.62 Soviet is inherently a very accurate round, but the SKS and AK's tend to be less accurate than AR's.

Why are you set on an autoloader?

 

[Omni04]

how does the SKS stack up to the Remington 700 ADL that was mentioned before? Is the Remington still more accurate? And just for comparison purposes where would my 10/22 fit on this spectrum? No aftermarket parts on it right now.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's apples and oranges and prunes. The SKS is a semiauto war rifle firing an intermediate cartridge. The 700 is a bolt action rifle usually chambered for high-powered rifle cartridges. Of course the 700 is going to be far more accurate on average than any SKS, and probably more accurate than 90% of the autofeeders out there. If you're after accuracy over firepower, the bolt action is both better and a lot less expensive.

The 10/22 is an autoloading rimfire with a straight blowback action, which is something different from either a gas venting autoloader or a bolt action.

What are you trying to get out of your rifle? More power? More firepower? Better accuracy?

 

[Omni04]

is there a reason people odn't use .223 when hunting? If it is more accurate, and as you described it a "high power rifle round" wouldn't that be good for hunting game too?

but then again i see the caliber, so im guessing it is just a quicker round, yet still smaller and not very significant at causing damage to prey, is this correct?


*edit* ATM i am just looking for a more accurate rifle, for fun at the shooting range. I don't plan on hunting, or using it for home defense or anything

just something to relax with on the weekends.

 

[Cosmoline]

The .223 is an intermediate cartridge, not a full power rifle cartridge. You can get a Rem. 700 chambered in one, or a cool mini-Mauser from CZ or Daly in .223. But those are generally for varmints or target shooting. The .223 is illegal for medium or large game in many states, and is generally a bad idea for hunting anything you plan on eating afterwards. It can certainly kill small game, but it leaves little behind in the way of meat or hide. If you're looking to make one ragged hole at the range, the .223 is awesome for that. it's also good for nailing varmints you wouldn't want to eat. It's designed to fire very small bullets at super high velocity. I think a mini-Mauser in .223 would work fine for you. I really like the CZ's.

The 7.62x39 is the Soviet intermediate cartridge. It's also quite cheap and you could get a mini-Mauser for it as well. Its ballistics are similar to a .30/30's. It's not as flat shooting at long range as the .223, but it hits harder.

 

[Omni04]

hmmm then if given a choice i think i would prefere a .223 over the NATO round. What is the real difference between all the rifles you just mentioned? Im guessing they are all pretty similar.

 

[Cosmoline]

The .223 is the NATO round. It's also called the 5.56 NATO. The 7.62x39 is the old Soviet counterpart. Both are very easy to find, though the .223 is better for long range target shooting.

I must not be communicating well today. All the rifles discussed in this thread are different. Let me try to break it down:

Full-size Bolt Action rifles: Rem. 700, Winchester, Ruger model 77, etc.

Micro-size Bolt Action rifles: CZ mini-Mausers, Charles Daly Mini-Mausers

Semi-auto war rifles: AR-15, SKS, AK-47 clones.

Rimfire blowback autofeeders: Ruger 10/22

 

[Omni04]

ok i understand, theres 2 sizes of bolt action rifles Id aim for the larger sizes, more than likely. So is there anything really different about the .223 models that have been mentioned? Or will they all pretty much operate the same?

are there any more suggestions on a good scope for it?

 

[grimjaw]

Bolt action, multiple calibers.

AR = money pit. IMLE, the AR least seen at the range is the stock, unmodified one.

Did you enjoy making more accurate shots using the scope, and now you want to make them at the same ranges with a more powerful cartridge? .223 will do that cheaply, and you won't find an action or brand that *isn't* made in that caliber. Do you want to make longer shots using a scope? Did you want fast followup shots? What's your maximum target range? Does it have to be a semi-automatic rifle?

I vote:

- .223 or 7.65x39 if you want inexpensive ammunition.
- Savage 10/11/12 or CZ 527

I was going to mention a pistol caliber carbine like the Ruger PC9, similar to your 10/22, but no one seems to like that gun. I don't know if the less expensive Keltec/HiPoint carbines can be scoped, but the PC9 can, and 9mm is cheap to shoot.

jmm

 

[Waffen]

Generally you can get much higher quality .223 ammo than you can 7.62x39. Most of the time 7.62 and MOA accuracy are not in the same sentence. For the most part the lower end brassed case .223 ammo is only marginally more expensive than the Wolf or other surpuls ammo you will be shooting out of a 7.62x39 (save American Eagle).

The 10/22 really is an extremly acurate rifle. You may realise after buying whatever gun you choose that it may not stack up to a 10/22. Keep in mind that the lower the power of the cartrige the higher potential for accuracy there is.

I will second all the bolt gun choices that have been stated so far:
Rem 700 (Some varant of the gun) (I'll save you time: Do not get the 710)
Savage 10/11/12
CZ-550/527
Weatherby Vangaurd
Charles Daly Mini-Mauser
Howa 1500

Any one of thoes should suit you just fine. With a bolt gun you will also tend to lear the fundimentals a lot faster. With bolt rifles you tend to make you're shots count.

It's no secret that I am trying to point you to a bolt rifle. However you cannot go wrong with a semi-auto if shooting for fun is on the top of the list.

Semi-Auto's that would work for ya

SAGIA .223
Ruger Mini-14
Keltec SU-16"x"
Used lower end AR of some kind
SKS
AK Varant

 

[Omni04]

ok, well like i stated accuracy is what i am going for. So apparently unless i wanna spend $1,000 i have to get a bolt-action!

for some reason i can't find a single fire-arm on walmart's website... odd. I will have to check on the prices later i guess. Does anybody own any of the .223 bolts mentioned? How well do they perform when compared against eachother?

 

[Waffen]

Don't worry about wallmart. They do have a special firearms/ammo site.

Get you're prices from www.gunbroker.com or places like this. It will give prices from all ends of the spectrum. Wallmart does have Remington 700's, and Savage 10's for sure. Go check it out.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

if you want, you can make the drive and i'll throw more rifles at you than you can stand to shoot...

pm if interested...