NEW Ruger M1 Carbine!

[kwb377]

I think a pistol caliber carbine makes a lot of sense for urban/indoor CCB, especially if your goal is escape/evasion/disengage. In these situations, you wont likely need a ton of penetration or 200YD+ ballistics.

Several years ago when I was one of the SWAT and Training guys for my dept., we had the opportunity to do some "unscientific" ballistics testing with our duty rounds in various calibers in some apartments that were being demo'd (also got to watch the Bomb guys blow some stuff up for a "Post Blast Analysis" class). We stood at the front door and fired through the walls to test for penetration.

Excuse the crude drawing (and as a Traffic guy, I can't believe I forgot to add "Not to Scale" )...



Rounds fired were:

.45 ACP - 230gr. Hydrashok
.40S&W - 180gr. Hydrashok
9mm - 147gr. Hydrashok
.223 Rem. - 55 gr. Federal HP

Firearms used:

.45ACP - H&K USP
.40S&W - Glock 22
9mm - Beretta 92FS and H&K MP5
.223 - Colt M16A2


The .45 ACP and the 9mm fired from the MP5 penetrated walls #1 and #2 and embedded themselves in #3 to where we couldn't retrieve them.

The .40S&W and 9mm fired from the Beretta penetrated walls #1 and #2 and were barely lodged in wall #3 and were retrieved.

The .223 fired from the M16A2 penetrated wall #1 and fragments were retrieved from the near side of the drywall on wall #2, with a few fragments making their way to the drywall on the far side of wall #2.


It was an eye-opener for us (and more-so for our admin) because at the time we were carrying MP5's for entry due to having a Chief that was a Vietnam combat veteran who told us that an AR would shoot through the house we were entering...and the next two houses down the street.



Having said all that...my bedroom closet gun is a Ruger PCC.

 

[MikeInOr]

Would be nice if Ruger offered something in .30 Carbine or .30 Super Carry for the PC Carbine. However, Ruger's sales department seems hell bent on chasing the 5.7 market.

Ruger still hasn't made a 10mm semi auto anything, so I hold out no hope they'll offer the PC carbine in a non 9mm caliber people want.

I have no interest in owning a 5.7. I would love a 22TCM carbine though!

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

If you had followed Ruger earlier you could have a Ruger carbine in 40S&W. All the same fun but more power.

 

[Riomouse911]

Several years ago when I was one of the SWAT and Training guys for my dept., we had the opportunity to do some "unscientific" ballistics testing with our duty rounds in various calibers in some apartments that were being demo'd (also got to watch the Bomb guys blow some stuff up for a "Post Blast Analysis" class). We stood at the front door and fired through the walls to test for penetration.

Excuse the crude drawing (and as a Traffic guy, I can't believe I forgot to add "Not to Scale" )...

View attachment 1158581

Rounds fired were:

.45 ACP - 230gr. Hydrashok
.40S&W - 180gr. Hydrashok
9mm - 147gr. Hydrashok
.223 Rem. - 55 gr. Federal HP

Firearms used:

.45ACP - H&K USP
.40S&W - Glock 22
9mm - Beretta 92FS and H&K MP5
.223 - Colt M16A2


The .45 ACP and the 9mm fired from the MP5 penetrated walls #1 and #2 and embedded themselves in #3 to where we couldn't retrieve them.

The .40S&W and 9mm fired from the Beretta penetrated walls #1 and #2 and were barely lodged in wall #3 and were retrieved.

The .223 fired from the M16A2 penetrated wall #1 and fragments were retrieved from the near side of the drywall on wall #2, with a few fragments making their way to the drywall on the far side of wall #2.


It was an eye-opener for us (and more-so for our admin) because at the time we were carrying MP5's for entry due to having a Chief that was a Vietnam combat veteran who told us that an AR would shoot through the house we were entering...and the next two houses down the street.



Having said all that...my bedroom closet gun is a Ruger PCC.

And where is the North arrow?

I was first on scene at a homicide where a “Northsider” shot up the house of a prolific tagger who pissed them off. The shooting was determined to be with a Mini-14 and 20 rounds of what we believe were all fmj. (Not all bullets were recovered.)

Several shots (5 or so) penetrated the stucco outer wall, the far side living room wall, some wooden kitchen cabinets sharing the back of that wall, and then the far wall of the kitchen/stucco exterior on their way out into the rear yard and were gone.

Most (10+\-) made it into the living room through the stucco exterior and broke up after going into the far living room wall/kitchen cabinets.

I guess the stepdad was working on his project truck in the closed garage and dropped a wrench onto the floor during the shooting. The clown then turned and shot his final 4-5 shots into the garage door at what we believe was the sound of the wrench clanging off the concrete.

The fatal shot went through the garage door, struck stepdad in the right knee and severed the artery to his lower leg as it exited. Family and neighbors all cowered inside and didn’t call 911 for several minutes afterwards. Sadly, stepdad had bled out before I could arrive.

5.56 rounds will penetrate a house if they hit stuff just right. As for the next two? I think that’s a bit of jungle lore, too.

Stay safe.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I don’t appreciate the misleading title of this thread…
Although I do like the pc carbine

Lots of stuff wrong with the click bait title and some assumptions made about the underpowered for personal defense (much like the actual M1C). That's something out of Korean war lore that was disproven a long time ago. The only reason Ruger, or any other manufacturer, won't build one is that 9mm is the the de-facto hand gun cartridge these days. Costs about half of 30 C and works well. The German military actually used it with great success in WW2 so no reason to not build SD carbines for 9mm.

I'm not sure why the OP would run down the 30 C. I have a USGI Inland that's good for 200 yds on an 18" plate, You can't really say that about 9x19.

Want to stand out there at 200 and take a hit? I didn't think so.

Most of JC's posts are mostly BS. Sorry, but I get tired of click bait no truthful content. It's a real drag. This isn't a magazine publication for bucks.

 

[jmr40]

5.56 rounds will penetrate a house if they hit stuff just right.

Not saying the incident in your post didn't happen just as you described. But this was probably an anomaly. I've seen too many tests done and typical handgun rounds penetrate building material farther than any 223/5.56 rounds I've seen. Even FMJ at close to 3000 fps tend to come apart when they hit something solid.

I've always preferred a handgun for anything I need to do indoors. But I'm not saying I'd never buy a 9mm carbine if the price were right. Unless I'm mistaken they used to offer that gun with an adapter that would allow it to work with Glock magazines.

 

[amd6547]

Funny…
I did the 9mm carbine thing for a few years. Over that time, I owned a few different types.
But, I changed my home defense longarm to the M1 Carbine. Currently, I’m liking the Hornady Critical Defense load, but I’d be satisfied with any basic old soft point load. 30 Carbine is far beyond 9mm when the right ammo is chosen.

 

[halfmoonclip]

I have the older Ruger PC Carbine, with the handguard over the barrel; if it had a bayonet lug, it would work well, and it would offer a fair buttstroke too.
PCC fan here; easier to shoot than a pistol, little upgrade in velocity, and you can practice in places that forbid centerfire rifle cartridges.
Personally, I prefer the older version, simply for its more M1 carbine vibe, and mine has GI sights.
Moon

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Let me help everyone needing to recover from the deceptive advertising practices in the title.

 

[Remington1911]

Underpowered is probably not the right term. 9mm has stopped a whole bunch of threats and put toe tags on an awful lot of people. It ain’t perfect, but it’s adequate with the right ammo.

And 30 carbine is what, same ballpark as 357. Yup underpowered for sure.

 

[Riomouse911]

Not saying the incident in your post didn't happen just as you described. But this was probably an anomaly. I've seen too many tests done and typical handgun rounds penetrate building material farther than any 223/5.56 rounds I've seen. Even FMJ at close to 3000 fps tend to come apart when they hit something solid.

I've always preferred a handgun for anything I need to do indoors. But I'm not saying I'd never buy a 9mm carbine if the price were right. Unless I'm mistaken they used to offer that gun with an adapter that would allow it to work with Glock magazines.

One thing I don’t do is BS about the stuff I experienced during my 31+ years in the job. There are plenty who do, I refuse to.

It sure may have been an outlier. The shots that went through the house may have been steel core or other penetrating rounds, they may have slipped between gaps in insulation or joists, that I don’t know. (Those bullets or bullet fragments were never recovered.)

But there were exit holes in the stucco on the back patio where these shots went through so there is a chance that 5.56 rounds can penetrate a house and exit.

Penetrating two or three apartments with common walls? That sure is a possibility. Two or three houses? That I don’t see happening with 5.56, even with penetrator rounds.

Stay safe.

 

[eastbank]

while very nice, you can,t compare that with this. in IMHO.

 

[mavracer]

It sure may have been an outlier. The shots that went through the house may have been steel core or other penetrating rounds, they may have slipped between gaps in insulation or joists, that I don’t know. (Those bullets or bullet fragments were never recovered.)

Plenty of variables to explain an outlier, not all fmj is constructed the same also older Mini 14s have slower twist that would keep RPMs down that could affect fragmentation.

As to the OP not even close. I think a 9mm PCC is a nice choice for someone who wants just one gun for plinking that could work for SD. For myself there are better options for SD and a 22 is much cheaper to plink/train with.

 

[lemaymiami]

I won't show any pics of the one carbine I own (an aftermarket commercial Plainfield...) but if memory serves - here are two items to consider... That 30 carbine round has the same energy as a .357 round? If you're comparing the muzzle velocity of the 357 - to the energy of a 30 carbine round at 100 yards downrange.... In short that small 30 carbine round is far superior as far as velocity goes to the 357, please correct me if I'm wrong. The next small point is that when it was used in actual combat - the only ammo it was fed - was full military jacket, period. Things change dramatically with a soft point round. Again, if memory serves - the robbery stakeout crew in New York all those years ago - were using soft point rounds - very, very effectively on armed offenders...

As far as the pistol cartridge carbine goes - I'd love to have one and would prefer it to any pistol - at pistol ranges... but that's just me...

ps.... Wonder what Audie Murphy would have said about the "war baby"- that carbine that he used - when he was winning all those medals - the hard way...

 

[Pat Riot]

I would consider my Ruger PC Carbine to be a very good HD gun, even though I currently do not use it as such. One thing I would not do is use an AR-15 or any other .223 / 5.56 firing gun as an HD gun. Not so much because I really don’t like the round but the noise of the round would literally be deafening indoors. It’s flippin’ too loud outdoors with hearing protection. I can’t imagine firing it indoors.

 

[Remington1911]

One thing I don’t do is BS about the stuff I experienced during my 31+ years in the job. There are plenty who do, I refuse to.

It sure may have been an outlier. The shots that went through the house may have been steel core or other penetrating rounds, they may have slipped between gaps in insulation or joists, that I don’t know. (Those bullets or bullet fragments were never recovered.)

But there were exit holes in the stucco on the back patio where these shots went through so there is a chance that 5.56 rounds can penetrate a house and exit.

Penetrating two or three apartments with common walls? That sure is a possibility. Two or three houses? That I don’t see happening with 5.56, even with penetrator rounds.

Stay safe.

I can see the apartments, the way they seem to be built now there is like 1" of space between the walls. Apartment A has a wall that is one inch away from apartment B on their "common" wall. Cheap to build even on expensive apartments seem to be the way of the world.

You can have a real good idea on what a bullet will do when it hits something you know what it is. You know what is very likely to happen if it hits two walls with 1" of insulation between them. When things seem to go sideways is when the bullet hits something "odd". Romex, a box, is it a plastic box or a metal box, did it hit a switch or outlet, where...... After it hits something "goofy" the bullet is "on its own" and no telling where it is going to go.

There is one hard and fast rule, the bullet has only so much energy and everything it touches takes away that energy. Two or three houses, I don't see that happening with a belted magnum. There is just so much stuff in the way that is going to make the bullet do things that no one has an idea what it will do.

Hope I said that right.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

Okay so I’ve put just under 400 thru the Ruger and have had 3-4 stove pipe type malfunctions.

I have ordered an improved designed extractor from M Carbo and a few other widgets. Hope this cures it.

 

[Riomouse911]

I can see the apartments, the way they seem to be built now there is like 1" of space between the walls. Apartment A has a wall that is one inch away from apartment B on their "common" wall. Cheap to build even on expensive apartments seem to be the way of the world.

You can have a real good idea on what a bullet will do when it hits something you know what it is. You know what is very likely to happen if it hits two walls with 1" of insulation between them. When things seem to go sideways is when the bullet hits something "odd". Romex, a box, is it a plastic box or a metal box, did it hit a switch or outlet, where...... After it hits something "goofy" the bullet is "on its own" and no telling where it is going to go.

There is one hard and fast rule, the bullet has only so much energy and everything it touches takes away that energy. Two or three houses, I don't see that happening with a belted magnum. There is just so much stuff in the way that is going to make the bullet do things that no one has an idea what it will do.

Hope I said that right.

Yup.

It’s all a matter of chance one the bullet heads down range in an urban setting.

As for 9mm, they also will penetrate a lot. I have also seen a 147 gr subsonic 9mm penetrate the back of the skull of a murder for hire suspect who had stabbed a detective, exit through the clowns eye socket, then go through a two-sided lath and plaster police station wall from the 1920’s (thick plaster!) and exit that with enough energy to bounce about off the floor and walls a couple of times like a rubber ball. That bullet missed my head by about half a foot and missed a lieutenant by even less. (I was in the doorway, he was in the hallway near my right shoulder.)

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-12-13-me-1450-story.html

(I looked for an archive of the Salisberry murder I referenced earlier but I couldn’t find one.)

I will use a line I used to answer a defense attorney when testifying in a gang shooting case years later; “Once you pull that trigger and fire that gun, you just just never know where that bullet will go, do you?”

Stay safe.

 

[Riomouse911]

Okay so I’ve put just under 400 thru the Ruger and have had 3-4 stove pipe type malfunctions.

I have ordered an improved designed extractor from M Carbo and a few other widgets. Hope this cures it.

Hmmm, that is one thing that (so far) I haven’t experienced with the PC and WWB 115& 124 gr fmj, Blazer brass 115 gr fmj and Win SXT 124 +P JHP. (I use the Glock magwell/magazines, the Ruger stuff is still in the box.)

I hope your new extractor solves the issue.

Stay safe.

 

[TTv2]

Ruger does make this this now-
View attachment 1158547
Then theres the Beretta, Sub2000, and the new S&W folding thingy- all have the mag in the grip. Probably a few others Im forgetting.

That S&W folding PCC is the clunkiest thing I've ever seen. It make the gun look like it has a tumor on it.

 

[hso]

Well not quite

7lbs vs. 5.2 lbs makes the M1 Carbine more svelt, but the utility of a 9mm pistol mag fed carbine "outweighs" the elegance of the M1.

The old Marlin Camp 9 was nearly 7 lbs back when it made a run at the M1's legacy.

Of course the 9mm carbine is beginning to be a crowded field with all the variants in more subgunish or AR configurations.

 

[marvin02]

My Marlin Camp 9 had a 7 pound trigger to go with the 7 pounds it weighed, but it really looked nice.

I've got two Ruger PC carbines that just function well. Ruger offers them in many configurations. You can buy wood furniture for them if you are will to spend another $450.

I also have the M&P FPC and it is nothing to look at. But it weighs 5 1/2 pounds with an optic on it and runs great.

Those that want a PCC with wood need to look at the Henry Homesteader.

 

[Buckeye63]

Why oh why a M1Carbine variant isn’t reintroduced is beyond me ..


This Keltec will fold and fit wonderfully in this back pack … and a 9mm standard pressure from a 16 inch barrel will rival a 357 mag from a 4 inch barrel..
I have mine loaded with standard pressure 124gr Gold Dots ..

 

[CoalTrain49]

Solved the problem. Just put JC on ignore.

Sometimes you just have to do that to maintain your sanity.

 

[Buckeye63]

Plenty of variables to explain an outlier, not all fmj is constructed the same also older Mini 14s have slower twist that would keep RPMs down that could affect fragmentation.

As to the OP not even close. I think a 9mm PCC is a nice choice for someone who wants just one gun for plinking that could work for SD. For myself there are better options for SD and a 22 is much cheaper to plink/train with.

I like my KT 9mm carbine … because it uses Glock 19 & 17 mags … Increased velocity & accuracy vs a handgun .. folds ..its light & fits in a backpack.. great for travel …