New SIG shoots WAY low

[Drue]

I just bought a SIG 229 in .40 and took it to the range. I put up a target at 25 yards and fired 5 rounds of Federal 180gr FMJ slowly and deliberately. No hits!!?? The target was the repair center for the B27 target which is 12.5" wide by 18.25" tall. I moved it to 10 yards and tried again. Five shots produced a nice group, pretty close on windage but 4" low. This would equate to 10" low at 25 yards which is way too far off. The test was repeated several times with the same result. The pistol has the standard SIG night sights.

The manual states that elevation adjustments can be made by substituting front and rear sights with those of differing heights designated by different numbers, although there is no mention of where these things might be obtained. The only sights offered on SIG's website are pairs of the #6 front and #8 rear which is what I have now. Trijicon, Meprolight and Brownells all offer sight sets with no mention of the heights or sight numbers. Midway lists a SIG sight set with an adjustable rear but it is listed as suitable for the 220, 225, 226, and 228. The 229 is not mentioned.

So, the first question is does anyone know a source for the numbered SIG sights? The second is should the adjustable sight work on a 229? The Midway description may just be old copy (before the 229) or there may be a reason that it would not work on a 229.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Drue

 

[basicblur]

Might try this link-it has a PDF for SIG's site pusher tool you'll probably want to save-has some info on their various sights etc. You might want to read the entire thread-been a while, but the OP was having trouble much as yourself?

Before you go too far, you might try different types of ammo? I know of some folks that have guns that for whatever reason really don't like certain types of ammo. Worst case I heard of is a friend with an XDSC9-it's spot on with Speer Gold Dots (his SD load) and WalMart's Federal practice ammo-for some reason, it hates Winchester White Box. He thought something was wrong with the gun, but tried the Federal and Speer to check and it's dead accurate with both of those.

Hard to believe it would be that far off-I'm guessing there was something wrong with the box of WWB he had?

 

[Lonestar49]

...

Can we rule out that this isn't shooter error, in that, this is not your first semi..?

If so, as mentioned above, there was another Sig owner, think same gun, with same low hit problems. I recall he contacted Sig CS and they sent him a smaller front sight and it solved the problem of low shots..

I have 3 P229's, 2 - 40's, same sights, Sig night sights as you have, but they are spot on.. doting the i, crossing the T POA - POI


Ls

Ps.. IF you want to test the gun again, try and find some 165gr FMJ, a bit faster, more accurate hitting than 180gr..

 

[Drue]

Guys,

Thanks for the replies. I read the link and downloaded the sight pusher document. Good info in both. It looks like going to a #10 rear sight would bring the POI up 4 inches and using a #9 front would add another 3. I agree that I should try other ammo before jumping off the deep end. I used the Fed 180's since that is what I have the most of. My Glock 23 eats it up and the POA = POI. I do have some 165's and will try them next. I am certainly no pistolero but am not a novice either. I am going to ask some of the other shooters to try it out and see where it prints for them.

In the event that ammo or shooter does not fix the problem, what do you think of the adjustable rear? Is there some reason why a sight that works on a 220, 225, 226, and 228 would not work on a 229?


Thanks again

Drue

 

[Lonestar49]

...

I would think it would, being you've found they do fit the others mentioned, but I wonder IF you go with only the rear adjustable, it may be all that is needed by raising up the rears, you'll have to bring up the front sight.

Also, your idea of letting others shoot it is a good idea, in that, IF this is your first 40cal, having more kick/recoil (especially in the first 400 rounds or so) you could be healing or anticipating the recoil at the same time you pull the trigger, thus you're shots will go low.. Only loading a snap cap, here and there, can you get the real affect to see IF you are doing those things.. boom, boom boom clk, boom clk and you'll have much of your answer. (better if someone loads them for ya for the complete surprise effect, but you can do it yourself, just don't count.. lol

I'd say another 200 - 300 rounds, with some others shooting her for ya, as well, will bring home the_answer.


Ls

 

[JDGray]

My 239 shot low for me, too. Sigs are set up to cover the target with the front dot, not the 6 O'clock hold that lines up every other gun I've shot.

 

[tincanhunter]

^^Yep! My P229 shot way low when I got it. Called Sig and this is what they told me. Sent the slide to Novak for new set of sights and the problem went away.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

Call Sig and make them do something for once.

 

[357SIG]

I'd let another shooter try it first. Awful lot of time and effort wasted if the gun is fine and it's the shooter. I've seen it before, even from experienced shooters. In fact, I'm pretty well experienced myself, and I'd still pass it to another shooter first if I had the same problem, so don't take it as a hit to your abilities.

BTW, if you don't have the proper tools for the job (sight pusher), you will not get the front sight off. You can smack it all day with a hammer and punch, but you will just beat up your gun. At the very least, you're gonna have to send it back or take it to a 'smith, who will charge you.

 

[NMGonzo]

Let a buddy try your gun first.

It happened to me.

 

[JohnBT]

"Call Sig and make them do something for once."

Aren't you the one who didn't want to call Sig? How's that going for you?

 

[SigP229R]

My 229 is 8 8 and it shoots a little low and to the left but I really think it's mostly me and not the gun. The reason I say this is because I shoot the same with every gun I have so it stands to reason it is not the gun. I am also right handed left eye dominant, which probably has something to do with it.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

"Call Sig and make them do something for once."

Aren't you the one who didn't want to call Sig? How's that going for you?

Haha, I guess you're right. "Make Sig do something for once" would've been more correct, though getting them to do something will be easier said than done. Good luck if you have to do that.

 

[Haifisch]

Aim Higher

 

[oasis618]

If you bought the gun new and it has factory installed sights, then it sounds like they aren't the correct height for the gun....unless SIG usually sights their guns for 10 feet. You shouldn't have to pay even more just to get it hit a target at 25 yards.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

I have a 229 SAS with a SIG factory front night sight that shoots way low, also - about 5 inches low at 20 feet.

Definitely a front sight issue. I have not gotten around to it yet, but I will replace the factory sights with a set of XS 24/7 Big Dots.

I have the Big Dots on another 229 that I own and I am very pleased with them.

I think that SIG's attention to detail has slipped quite a bit in recent years.

 

[1SOW]

Shoot slowly from a rest (sandbags or actual rest) and try it again.

Have someone you know who can shoot try it.

Contact SIG with the above info and they will send you a shipping label.

I did with a 239 a few years back, and they did.

 

[tincanhunter]

SIG won't fix the sights for no cost. Again...the sights are set up from the factory so that you have to cover the target with the dot on the front sight to hit what your aiming at. Sig did this to their pistols that are designed for combat. This is what SIG told me when I called them about my P229 that was shooting way low. SIG also said that in order to have them install sights for the "normal" sight picture, center of target on top of the front sight, it would cost me $150. So I sent the slide off my P229 off to Novak and had him install a set of his sights for ~$120. When I got the pistol back it was dead on using the "normal" sight picture.

 

[Drue]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the replies. I am sorry to see that others are having similar problems.

I went back to the range and tried again. Using the 180gr ammo the shots were still almost 10" low and about 3" to the left at 25 yards. All shooting was done two handed while sitting at a bench with my forearms resting on my rear rifle rest bag. Several other people were at the range and I recruited two them to shot the SIG. Their results were similar but their groups were only 7 to 8 inches low. All of us were using a center hold with the top of the front sight bisecting a white paster over the X in a B27 repair center. The group locations were measured from the center of the paster. Information revealed in this thread indicates that we should have been holding the front dot over the target but this would have moved the POI up only 2-3".

I had some 155gr Fed JHP with me so I tried it out. The group was 1" low and 2" right. Duhhhh........


I will have to do more testing but is looks like I may have found ammo that is close enough to work. Next range trip, I will repeat the tests and try some 165's.

All of this brings up the question: how does one design fixed sights for pistols these days? Back in the day when all .38 Spl ammo was 158gr LRN, revolvers would be sighted for it. .45 Autos were sighted for 230gr hardball. I am sure that companies providing pistols for NATO armies design the sights for the NATO spec 9mm ammo. What about the .40? Ammo is available with bullets from 135 to 200 grains. What is "standard?" Is there a standard? What about different grip styles? What about handloads? I can see adjustable sights in my future.

Drue

 

[JDGray]

SIG won't fix the sights for no cost. Again...the sights are set up from the factory so that you have to cover the target with the dot on the front sight to hit what your aiming at. Sig did this to their pistols that are designed for combat. This is what SIG told me when I called them about my P229 that was shooting way low.

This was also my understanding. Try shooting at life size silhouette, and see if the white dot, is where the bullets are hitting. In a panic, one is only point shooting anyways.

 

[rcmodel]

What is "standard?"

I'd have to say the .40 S&W standard" is the 180 grain.

That was all there was for some time after the round was introduced.

The light fast bullet phenomena is way more recent.

rc

 

[basicblur]

Is this mainly a SD gun?

I had some 155gr Fed JHP with me so I tried it out. The group was 1" low and 2" right.

Well sounds like you're getting there with the ammo-not so sure 'bout the windage problem-lots of dry fire practice in your future (or maybe sight tweaking)? Do you have one of the commonly available targets that lists problems in the outer ring?
AFA adjustable sights, I'd kinda hate to put 'em on something like your P229-think I'd just get it to work with fixed sights (whatever that takes). Gotta remember that while nice for quick adjustments, adjustable sights are usually bigger, have more to snag, and anything that can be adjusted can go out of adjustment when you least expect it?

'Course, I'm coming at this from using the P229 as a SD tool-all my range/practice time is just to increase/maintain proficiency in case it ever has to be used as such (but my P229R is a 357 SIG).

Don't know what ammo choices you have, but for me it's easier/cheaper to find Speer Gold Dot for SD ammo, and I try to find practice ammo that mirrors it.
I'd also try to avoid the 20/25 round boxes of SD ammo being pushed these days-I've found 50 round boxes at Ammunition To Go, local shops, and it never hurts to check police supply houses, but their prices in my area range from extremely cheap to outrageous. There is a not so local police supply where I can buy Remington Golden Saber Bonded 357 SIG MUCH cheaper than I can get WWB at WalMart! (go figure?)
Most folks these days seem to be coming down on the side of lighter/faster AFA SD ammo-just to give you some examples of what's out there in 40 SD ammo I've got:
Speer LE Gold Dot Duty Ammunition 155 gr. GDHP 1200 fps / 496 ft. lbs 53961
(my main/cheapest/easiest to find SD ammo)
Federal Premium Law Enforcement 165 gr. HST Tactical 1130 fps / 468 ft. lbs P40HST3
Winchester Ranger LE Ammunition 180 gr. T-Series 990 fps / 392 ft. lbs RA40T
Federal Premium Hydra-Shok JHP 155 gr. 1140 fps / 447 ft. lbs P40HS2G
Federal Personal Defense Hydra-Shok JHP 135 gr. HE/LR 1200 fps / 430 ft. lbs PD40HS4(H)
Federal Personal Defense EFMJ 135 gr. HiEn/LoRe 1200 fps / 430 ft. lbs PD40CSP2H
Federal Premium EFMJ 165 gr. 1080 fps / 427 ft. lbs P40CSP1
Winchester Personal Protection 180 gr. JHP 1010 fps / 408 ft. lbs USA40JHP (WalMart)

If you live in a small town like me, it can be tough to find reasonably priced SD ammo-I've gotten a number of group buys together and ordered from Ammunition To Go in order to split shipping costs. They're one of my favorites AFA buying SD ammo-usually just hit WalMart for practice ammo.

 

[rscalzo]

The light fast bullet phenomena is way more recent.

About forty years ago when Lee Jurras started Super Vel. 40S&W in 155 and 165 was around in the mid 90's when we converted over.


Every new Sig that comes into our range seems to shoot low when new. After the shooter gets used to the trigger the groups seem to move. Don't be in a rush to start changing sights just yet. As stated, they are sighted for a Navy or center hold.

 

[Bovice]

DON'T MOVE THE SIGHTS.

Practice your trigger pull.

My 229 .40 is dead on, but if someone who isn't familiar with the gun tries, they always go way too low. Don't give up. Just practice. Soon, you'll be running all 12 (or 14 if you have the SCT mags) rounds quickly into the center ring. I love my P229. Probably the best ever .40 design.