New Source for 455 Webley Ammo?

[manchester2]

For those of you who haven't seen it, ‎BuffaloBore*‎just released a reconfigured version of the .38 S&W designed to improve its suitability as a defensive round while keep it below the pressure requirements of Webley and Enfield breaktop revolvers.
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This got me thinking: Why not do the same with .455? This round has tremendous potential; just loading it to full powder capacity would get you to the 800 fps range (like the old Mk III round) without increasing pressure. I also think there*is a sufficient latent market among collectors to make the production of a reimagined 455 worthwhile. ‎
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I wrote to ‎BuffaloBore‎*and asked them.*‎I got a very nice reply saying they liked the idea and were going to look into doing it. ‎They said they would have to "get the test guns and then develop the loads" but they hoped to get it done in the next year or so.*
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My understanding is that ‎Buffalo Bore‎re produced the .38 SW after a lot of people wrote to them suggesting that they give it a try. So anyone who's interested in seeing .455 reproduced should write to ‎[email protected]*‎and weigh in. Who knows, if they hear interest from enough people, maybe they'll do it! ‎
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Considering that there's pretty much only Fiocchi still making .455 at all, it would be great to see another company produce it. ‎
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[PabloJ]

Check out Hornady site they may still offer it.

 

[the Real Alpo]

I don't really see the point.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=350

>PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 S&W or 38 COLT NEW POLICE (item 20.5A)

After countless customer requests for ammunition that will make the 38 S&W cartridge lethal to humans, Buffalo Bore is delivering. There are millions of small revolvers still in circulation chambered for this cartridge and if an ammo company was to make effective self-defense ammo...<

That sounds like a good plan. Decent ammo for all those old Smiths and Ivers and Thames and other 38 S&W revolvers. Those "millions of small revolvers".

But you slide down a couple of paragraphs, and it says, >This ammunition is safe to use in ANY solid frame revolver that is in ordinary shooting condition. “Solid frame” means any revolver that is not a top break frame.<

Then you look at the next paragraph.

>The only two top break (not solid frame) revolver manufacturers that can use this ammunition are British Enfield and Webley. Both these models feature heavy frames and robust latches that resist deformation. All other “top break” models should never be fired with this ammunition.<

Well, how 'bout that? I guess those "millions of small revolvers", that this stuff was made for, can't use it. Looks like it is to be used in British Victories, and Smith Terriers.

 

[golden]

I question how effective it is

I have serious doubts about how effective this BUFFALO BORE ammo will be. As a small game round it will do fine. As a target round, it is probably overloaded with recoil approximating the 125 grain +P .38 Special.

For self defense, what good is it? It does not expand and while a lot of internet writing has been devoted to the KEITH style bullet, the only LEO agency to try a NON-HOLLOW POINT semi-wadcutter that I have read about is the NYPD. They absolutely did NOT WANT A HOLLOW POINT to replace the round nose lead round, but found it was no more effective and had to adopt a hollow point.

A round like this with a hollow point would probably be effective. It would penetrate less, but would act more like the 158 grain + P SWC-HP round often called the FBI load.

Another approach would be to put the old 125 grain NYCLAD hollow point back into production. The NYCLAD bullet was so soft, it could expand when fired from a 2 inch barrel at standard pressure. The nylon (blue) coating, kept the bullet from leading the barrel. It was a great round.

A hollow point might be a waste of time in the old top break guns, but should work find in all those COLT and S&W medium frame revolvers with 4, 5 or 6 inch barrels. Even the snub noses could get a real improvement in stopping power.

Jim

 

[Jim K]

Well, a .38 S&W +P load should get rid of a lot of those "Tramps Terror" suicide specials and old break tops, no matter what BB says. And a few fingers and eyes might go along for the ride. I predict either the ammo will be the same or lower than SAAMI spec, or won't get off the ground.

Jim

 

[Gordon]

I like the Fiocchi .455 LOAD which is still available, i STILL HAVE HALF OF THE 500 i LUCKED INTO 15 YEARS BACK. I would not like to get hit with it.

 

[manchester2]

Gordon: Smart to have kept your hands on those. You're right that Fiocchi still makes 455, but they're the last company to my knowledge (Hornady discontinued) and Fiocchi only does seasonal runs -- about once a year. To give you a sense of how scarce it has become, there has been no 455 ammo available in any online source since about the summer/early fall of last year. Should Fiocchi ever decide to discontinue as Hornady did, there will be no one currently making it commercially to my knowledge. That's why imo it's so important for collectors to give feedback to companies/carriers of ammo so they keep producing it.

 

[Sunray]

"...with .455..." Not enough demand.
"...that will make the 38 S&W cartridge lethal to humans..." What idiocy marketing types come up with.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The basic difference between the .455 Webley and the .45 Colt is case length and rim thickness. I knew a fellow who chucked .45 Colt cases in a drill press and used a warded file to reduce rim thickness, and then trimmed the cases to proper length. He used recommended starting loads for the .45 Colt.

 

[manchester2]

Sunray: I fear you're right about 455 lack of demand. However, there is a vestigial but growing interest in this old caliber among collectors due to the uptick in Webley collectors and the trend towards relinquishing the higher-pressure 45acp in shaved guns in favor of headspace rings. With enough feedback from collectors, ammo makers will continue producing even obsolete calibers in seasonal runs, and I'm hoping that will happen with 455.

As for S&W 38, I've never been a fan. Not sure I would use even Buffalo Bore's updated version as a defensive round, but its performance is certainly a big improvement on the traditional configuration and puts it on a par with some of the 380s. Hats off to them for trying to do something with an otherwise hopelessly anemic round.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As for S&W 38, I've never been a fan. Not sure I would use even Buffalo Bore's updated version as a defensive round,

Somehow the idea of using an "updated version" of the .38 S&W reminds me of what John Donne said;

"For a man to find a good wife is like to grope an eel out of a bag full of serpents. If he succeed, what hath he, but a wet eel by the tayle?"

 

[Radagast]

He'd have 9mm Federal.

 

[manchester2]

You're right: 125 grain/1000fps vs 124 grain/1126fps. Not a bad improvement when you consider what they're working with.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I would love for Buffalo Bore to "improve" the .455, especially if they could get to some of the hotter .455 Colt ballistics. Hoverer, there is at least one complication with the caliber that would need to be addressed:

I know in the Webley Mk V and VI, and probably the IV, the cylinder was designed with a very tight throat to improve combustion of the new .455 Mk II smokeless propellant charges. The ample hollow base of the soft lead 265 gr RN bullet would quickly compensate for this "swagging" process by expanding into the full bore of the barrel. How this set-up would respond to elevated ballistics and a solid-base, hard-cast lead bullet is open to debate.

I am actually thinking about having the cylinder throats opened-up my Mk VI's to improve reloading options. Not much pistol grade cordite being burned these days...

 

[kBob]

Isn't .38 S&W what Rex Applegate had difficulty with one night in Latin America?

-kBob

 

[Dr.Rob]

http://gadcustomcartridges.com/

They stock a .455 load.

 

[Billy Shears]

I don't really see the point either. Even assuming the Webley round can be made to both penetrate adequately, and to expand -- and that's a big if, with such a low pressure, low velocity round -- who really needs it for that? Why would anyone use a Webley for self defense today? Sure, if it's all you've got, it's certainly better than no gun at all. But virtually any modern revolver will have a far better trigger (the Webley's trigger is so heavy as to make DA shooting more difficult than it needs to be), and be chambered in a better performing round. The vast majority of Webley's that were imported into the US were converted to .45ACP. And of those which are left in their original .455 chambering, how many of their owners really want to use the gun for self or home defense? My guess would be very few. I don't see a market here.

The Webley is best left to history, and to recreational plinking, for which the old round nose lead bullets are entirely sufficient.

 

[Nom de Forum]

But virtually any modern revolver will have a far better trigger (the Webley's trigger is so heavy as to make DA shooting more difficult than it needs to be)

If you had any experience with the Webley revolver know as the "WG" (mistakenly referred to by some as the Webley-Green) you would soon realize you are in error. Even the WWI Webley MkVI trigger can be tuned to be more than sufficiently smooth and light for a modern self-defense revolver. I used a MkVI to become an IPSC Class A revolver shooter. You have to have spent a very great amount of time practicing with a hand-ejector style revolver to be able to reload faster than someone who has spent a small fraction of that time learning how to rapidly reload a Webley.

 

[manchester2]

‎Billy: You're raising a good question. Buffalo Bore specializes in small-batch ammo. They especially like to find rounds (large-bore if possible) whose potential has been under-realized. 455, with its partially-used case capacity, would seem to be a good candidate for that. Even bringing that big old cartridge to powder capacity would give you an extra 2-300 fps without even messing with pressures. The bigger question is, "to what end?" The company specializes in defensive rounds but not solely -- they have developed various sporting rounds. As a collector, "the point" for me is to simply try to encourage them (or anyone) to make the round in order to address the growing problem of scarcity. I simply can't get this round anywhere these days. And I love 455. My role is to suggest it to them; it's up to their company to assess whether there's a market and in what form. My assumption is that there is enough unmet demand among Webley collectors to support them making this round in at least small batches, presumably on something like the hardcast model they used for other rounds they've upgraded. 455 has a hobby-cult following that has gotten bigger as more people have figured out the limitations/dangers of firing high-pressure 45 ACP through the shaved Webleys. The new headspace rings allow folks to shift them back to 455. But the only way to get the ammo is to handload. This could help address that problem, irrespective of whether the 455 is an ideal defensive round or not (I think it would mess somebody up plenty, incidentally).*
‎455 Hunter is raising a smart point: what impact would a new cartridge configuration have on the tight throat issue. Great question, I have no idea. I would love to see Buffalo Bore simply replicate the 800-ish proto-hollowpoint Mk III cartridge.*

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'll point out that in the old days, before the Hague Convention, the British used a soft lead bullet with a huge hollowpoint in .455 -- the famous "Manstopper."

 

[.455_Hunter]

I agree that the small batch lot process would seem reasonable. The Buffalo Bore catalog already has quite a few low-volume, esoteric loads, so .455 is not too "out there".

 

[Dr.Rob]

Pointing out at $30/box of 50 from Gads you could experiment.

 

[kBob]

As usual Vern got it in one.

If I had to depend on a .455 for self defense a dead soft lead wad cutter with a great big hole in the front end sounds attractive.

I wonder if the same might be a good idea for a .38 S&W. Dispite the bore size issue I had a friend that loaded .357 148 HBWC backwards for his little S&W Terrier in S&W .38 cal. It was at least minute of old style paper and foil quart oil can at 12 yards. Occasionally one would hit sideways and I am not sure that was a bad thing.

-kBob

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I loaded up some hollowbase wadcutters in .357 for my first tour in Viet Nam. They leaded something fierce, but worked well for their intended purpose.

 

[manchester2]

I agree with kBob: at short ranges a 455 would create ample tissue damage. I doubt there is much of a self-defesne market (as opposed to plinking) for 455, but Buffalo Bore's small batches could probably do just fine producing an upgraded hard cast round in the 800-850 fps range. Wouldn't take much to trim down that 265 grain bullet and maximize case capacity without overdoing pressure. Vern, I am very tempted to hand load some of those Mk III cartridge wadcutters/hollowpoints. In the disputed Lagarde Thompson tests of 1904 the were noted to have "exceptional performance at short ranges." I want to remake it and run penetration tests in ballistic jelly.