.455 Webley Revolver Question

[Nightcrawler]

The British Webley revolver in .455 is pretty cool looking, to me. What was the performance of the .455 service round? I understand it was somewhat less than you could get out of .45ACP.

Would it have been possible to convert a .455 Webley revolver to .45ACP? Would it hold up to long-term use (assuming using the standard pressure loads of the day, 230 grains at 800-850 feet per second)?

Thanks. (Just curious.)

Thanks to Max at World.Guns.ru for the pictures. Visit his sight! It's really cool!

 

[Nightcrawler]

Apparently they COULD be converted. Collectible Firearms has one that was converted to .45ACP.

Interesting!

A modern reproduction of one of these would be the bee's knees. Especially if they could beefen up the locking mecahnism so it could handle +P ammo.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I can't remember specific performance levels off the top of my head, but I believe that they were very similar rounds.

The Webley fired a somewhat heavier bullet, I believe 265 gr.

And yes, many many fine Webley revolvers were converted to fire .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim either by having the rear of the cylinder shaved, or have the individual chambers reamed.

There's nothing more sickening than coming across a British WW I contract S&W Triple Lock in .455, a gun that in good condition is worth close to $1,000, but with the shaved cylinder is worth about $600 less...

 

[LightningLink]

I'm no expert, but I do have a Webley Mk VI that was converted to .45 ACP so I can at least throw out what I do know. Mine looks like the first picture. Made by Enfield in 1926.

The conversion process, as far as I know, is as simple as shaving off metal from the back of the cylinder. If you're lucky, the matching serial number on the cylinder will still be intact (mine is). 45 ACP rounds have to use half- or full-moon clips. I believe there is a shoulder in the cylinder, but it's meant for the .455 round and is too far forward for the ACP round. I think you can also use the 45 Autorim cartridge which has a rim and doesn't need the moon clips. But I don't think the Autorim cartridge is commonly available and is usually hand loaded.

I don't have a link to figures, but as I understand it, the normal pressures for the .455 round are lower than the normal pressures of modern 45 ACP rounds. I reloaded my 45 ACP rounds under pressure and it was suggested that they were perhaps still too high. It's not that the 45 ACP pressure is overly dangerous, but that the excess would wear out the revolver prematurely. I had a thread over at Gunboards.com regarding this, but it was lost during their recent upgrade.

I only shot mine once (around 100 rounds), and it shot amazingly well. Very accurate out to about 30 feet. Recoil was hardly anything. These big beefy revolvers handle 45 ACP very nicely. The same night I was shooting a CZ-52, CZ-50 and Swiss Ordnance 1882 revolver and the Mk VI outshined them all.

My only recommendation is that if you want one in .45 ACP, try to buy one already converted. The untouched versions are getting pretty rare and it would suck to loose another one when there's more converted ones available than not.

LL

 

[Nightcrawler]

If I ever did get one, it would be one that was already converted. I wouldn't buy a guy that I could'nt shoot (like a collector grade .455) and I certainly wouldn't butcher an original by conversion.

 

[444]

.45 ACP Webleys are the norm and .455s are somewhat rare. By this, I mean the ones you find for sale at gunshows or gunshops etc.

I don't have any scientific data to give you at all. I have a Mk.IV in .455 Webley. The recoil of it is like shooting a .22LR. I have only fired it with handloads and Fiocchi factory ammo. Factory ammo is a PITA to find. I don't know if this stuff is loaded up to GI specs or not, but it dosn't inspire much confidence if I was suddenly confronted by a dirvish or something.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I was suddenly confronted by a dirvish or something."

That's why Webley developed the Manstopper bullet!

Essentially an ENORMOUS flat-face hollowpoint.

I've got one in my collection. Unfortunately, it's NOT an authentic one, it's a recreation done by a guy I used to know from the Compuserve Firearms Forum.

 

[444]

The factory ammo I am shooting is (I blieve) a 265 grain round nose bullet.

The cool thing is that I was able to find an authentic web holster, belt, and lanyard for mine. I showed up at the local vintage military bolt action rifle match wearing my Webley and I thought the match director was going to have to be sedated. He offered me everything but the kitchen sink in trade for it, especially when he found out it was in the original caliber.

 

[euclid]

From The Big Book of Surplus Firearms, The best of Vols IV, V and VI

Pg. 109:

"The .455 MarkII round was and adequate manstopper at close ranges. It featured a 265-grain bullet pushed along at 600 feet per second (fps) by a moderate charge of Cordite."

Fiocchi offers .445 ammo commercially.


cheers

 

[Dr.Rob]

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976383553.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976371379.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976371363.htm

I like the old Webly but the military models are just covered with inspectors stamps and import marks. Webly even went to far as to stamp their guns "wartime finish" so as not to confuse a commerical buyer about the quality of their weapons.

I've never seen a .455 at a gun show, but those old 38 DA only guns used to sell at Gart's for $99.

I'd love to get an old RUC Bulldog in nickel, the sort of piece watson might have put in his pocket on his way to the opera. Eh, wot?

 

[4v50 Gary]

If you want a shooter, get one already converted to 45 ACP. There's plenty of them out there if you want to shop GunList.

 

[Jim K]

Those guns were converted by the thousands by U.S. importers in the late 1950's and early 1960's because .455 ammo was not available in quantity. (The British actually never produced a lot in WWII; their standard revolvers were in .38/200 (.38 S&W) and their SMGs fired 9mm. )

So the Webleys had the back shaved off the cylinder so as to use .45ACP with half moon clips (there were no full moon clips at that time). There is no shoulder in the chamber to support the .45ACP case, so the moon clips are necessary to even fire the cartridge, unlike the U.S. Model 1917 revolvers (except the early Colts) which have shoulders and can fire without the clips.

But the factory .45ACP is a lot too hot for the old revolvers, and I recommend either loading down or not firing the old guns.

Jim

 

[Nightcrawler]

If standard .45ACP is too hot, what did people shoot out of them? .45ACP in World War II was a 230 grain bullet at 800 to 850 feet per second. It remains the same today.

 

[Tamara]

Wonder if the Georgia Arms factory .45 Auto Rim would work in them?

 

[Johnny Guest]

The big bore Webley: A fun revolver.

I've had three Webleys - -A MK-IV in .45 ACP, and a MK-IV and a MK-VI in .455. Wish I had at least one of them now.

The .455 Webley round was not so anemic as one might think. It stacked up quite well against most military cartridges of it's era of origin. The original .45 Colt SAA was pretty stout, but almost all the military versions in the Indian War period were used with the .45 S&W Scofield round, which was not nearly so powerful. The .38 US Service revolver round was nowhere nearly so powerful.

As the old Webley revolvers were made of softer steel than modern arms, they will not stand up as well to heavy loads, certainly.

The .45 Auto Rim cartridge usually gives somewhat better accuracy in a converted Webley than factory .45 ACP. The Webley bullet was a true .455 diameter, and the hard jacketed ACP ball, at .452 diameter is distinctly undersize, and being hard, will not "slug out" and take the rifling very well. The factory lead Auto Rim bullet at least obturates somewhat. The best solution for the shooter of a converted Webley is to use Auto Rim cases and, if you can find them, the Winchester 255 gr .45 Colt factory bullets. They are a hollow base bullet made of soft lead and 5.0 gr. of Unique pushes them at slightly over 600 fps. Also, the heavier weight is closer to original specs, and the point of impact is closer to point of aim with unaltered sights.

Another possibility is to find someone with an old Lyman 454424 mold and either shoot lubed but unsized, or order a .455 sizing die. If you are lucky enough to locate some boxer-primed CIL .455 cases, back down a bit on the powder, as the .455 case is only .757 long, compared to .886 of the .45 ACP and .897 of the Auto Rim.

The above applies to the break top Webley revolvers. Those with .455 S&W or Colt New Service revolvers can load hotter if they wish, but it is not recommended. If one wants to shoot at .45 Colt or magnum power levels, those revolvers are more common than the old .455s. There is a lot of fascination in "doing it the way the old timers did it."

On the other hand - - I believe a Webley MK-IV made of modern steel would be very combat- worthy. It could be .45 Colt or .44 Special, but I'd really like it in .45 ACP/Auto Rim. The stirrup latch can be operated with shooting hand thumb and the barrel broken downward against the leg, ejecting the empties, while the off hand takes a moon clip from a speedloader case. One quick movement inserts the loads, the barrel is slapped upward, and you're ready to rock! All the Webleys I've ever handled had very smooth actions, though some had rather hard trigger pulls.

Best of luck in shooting the .455.
Johnny

 

[BluesBear]

I owned at least a half dozen Webleys. All had been converted to .45acp when I bought them, and all were eventually used as trading fodder.

As I recall the 1968 Guns & Ammo Annual described them as "... big, homely, ungainly revolvers that shot big, homely, ungainly bullets."

It was love at first sight.

I bought all of them back in the 1970's, when S&W 1917's and 1955 Targets were just to steep for my student budget. The going price for a Webley back then was around $35 if it was .45ACP. The original .455 ones were going for about $25 but no one wanted them because back then it was dang near impossible to find .455 ammo.

I used to use some fairly stiff ACP handloads in mine from time to time, but mostly just linotype reloads in Auto Rim cases. They were a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[zeke]

Have two of em, an early shaved Mark I Navy model, and an original chambered Mark VI Enfield. Both of their chamber throats measure .447, lands very similiar. There is a company that alters Rem 45 LC brass to Mark I or Mark II Webley cases. Graph and Sons is supposed to be coming up with batch of Webley brass made by or franchised through Hornady.

Have fired the Mark I with 200 gn lrnfps, very accurate considering the very heavy trigger pull.

Bought the MArk I for $90 at local gunshop, got the price down because looked like someone had carved big arrow on top strap. PAid $250 for the MArk VI, in new condition excepting some light barrel rusting.

Neat pistols, would like one in modern steel and chambered for 44 russian or 44 special (more steel in chamber walls)

 

[blackcampbell]

I'm with Johnny Quest here -- very underrated guns. I have a conversion to .45ACP. i fire +Ps out of it on occasion. No issues at all. these weapons were double pressure proofed; that is more than adequate to handle the modern loads. I also have a .455 version. the 265gr round may be slow but it's highly effective, as evidenced by it's service from 1882 until the late 1950s (and still turns up here and there, in places like India.)

The .38/200 Webley (.38S&W) is a weak cartridge, comparatively, but is on par with .380. A friend used to reload the spent shells to 9mm Luger specs for my MK III (built in 1897 for the Singaporean constabulatory.) No issues at all.

The Webley is one of the most stout, robust revolvers you will find outside of the modern magnums. They're worth every penny.

 

[DrakeGmbH]

I would recommend against firing commercially-loaded .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim in these guns (Georgia Arms included!).

Standard-pressure .45 ACP is 21000 PSI while the pressure of .455 Webley is 12600 PSI and the proof pressure of a Webley Mark VI is 6 long tons per square inch - 13440 PSI.

Handloading .45 ACP or Auto Rim cases would be a safer option if you have a converted revolver. They are very stout and will hold up to .45 ACP abuse for a while, but not forever. Hollow base bullets work best in these guns.

Here's the cylinder latch on a converted gun I bought - it broke before I had a chance to shoot it. Notice how badly it is warped in the center.

Here is a photo of the barrel loop - the portion that rests on the frame and is held in place by the barrel latch. Notice how the metal has stretched to the point of tearing. This gun was fed a healthy diet of hardball .45 ACP.

I did fix this gun up by replacing the barrel, barrel latch, hammer, trigger and fitting it with a .22 LR adapter kit. I shoot .455 from my second non-modified Mark VI.

 

[lonegunman]

Converting a Webley to 45acp is the best way to totally ruin a valuable revolver. If you have a sick desire to do this, buy one already ruined.

btw, 455 webley has more power than 45 acp, it is just harder to find.

 

[Oyeboten]

If...

"The .455 MarkII round was and adequate manstopper at close ranges. It featured a 265-grain bullet pushed along at 600 feet per second (fps) by a moderate charge of Cordite."

May as well just Handload with 3F BP...and the same Bullet would probably clock closer to 700...and with no harmful pressures.


Be worthwhile to try it and use a Chronograph, and see...


I almost bought a 1914 Webley Break Top 45 a couple years ago...I have felt sorry I did not get it, but that's how it went.

It had close to no Blue, and timing problems, and, was $300.00...but I sure liked it, regardless.

 

[rcmodel]

DrakeGmbH said:

I would recommend against firing commercially-loaded .45 ACP or .45 Auto Rim in these guns

I agree completely. Excellent assessment of the situation on modern load pressure vs original proof test limits.
The converted guns will shoot loose using full power .45 ACP in them.

If you have one so converted, use only 185 grain match wad-cutter ammo and it will stay together a long time.

Full power 230 grain loads will have it rattling in fairly short order.

rc

 

[WARDER]

the webley revolvers had quite a common habit of blowing their cylinders out even using their own ammo and i have personally seen this happen with no warning the side blows out .IF you check serial numbers on a lot of webleys you will find the cylinder does not match the frame .

 

[SwordRapier]

I know this is a frightfully stupid question but I have to ask it anyway. Why did manufacturers stop making top break revolvers.

Having never actually seen a top break I would thing that they would be easier to load than the side swing models the grips wouldn't get in the way of the speedloader. I can see s couple of advantages of the top break revolvers. Besides they just look cool.

Okay, okay, so I'm and Indianan Jones fan and he liked his top break Webleys.

 

[natman]

I know this is a frightfully stupid question but I have to ask it anyway. Why did manufacturers stop making top break revolvers.

Having never actually seen a top break I would thing that they would be easier to load than the side swing models the grips wouldn't get in the way of the speedloader. I can see s couple of advantages of the top break revolvers. Besides they just look cool.

Okay, okay, so I'm and Indianan Jones fan and he liked his top break Webleys.

The one piece frame is a lot stronger that a two piece top-break frame with a latch on the top and a hinge in the middle.

They are cool, just not as functional.