New thoughts on LCP & pocket .380s

[IdaD]

I may have missed it but there's another consideration from my viewpoint and that's accuracy. These tiny .380s are more than difficult to shoot even with defense grade accuracy at more than a few yards. They're also so uncomfortable to shoot that we tend not to practice with them. I'm guilty of this with my LCP which is there but which I tend to not practice with since it actually pinches my hand in use.

To see what I mean, set up a target at 10 yards and try to hit it with your LCP or Kel-Tec or whatnot. I find that to be near impossible where doing so using even a subcompact such as a Shield is simple. While I'm on a bash, I'll also say that IMO, the Shield, for all it's great, makes no sense in .380 except for those who are fantastically recoil sensitive and/or cannot rack the slide on a 40 or other major caliber pistols of that size. Why use a .380 when it'd be just as easy to use a 9 or 40 or even 45 two of which have vastly less expensive practice ammo plus better defense loads.

I bring up accuracy since it's important, IMO. In the case of need, I wish to hit the bad guy but not hit the good guys which is easy at defense range for the aforementioned subcompacts such as the Shield class weapons but is more than problematical with the tiny .380's. Consider: you're in a store. A goblin shows up to rob the place shouting he'll croak everybody there so you having your CCW, swing into action to prevent him from croaking you and the others. You shoot at him but with a tiny .380 you end up wounding the clerk and an innocent shopper. Sure the goblin is legally liable for that but how'd you feel? I know how I'd feel - terrible.

In sum, the best I can say about the tiny .380's is they're better than two things: a .32 or nothing and that's not saying much.

It's a lot better than nothing and I've found my LCP to be pretty accurate even out at 15 yards. I do agree that 380 doesn't make sense for most people once the gun gets up to the smaller 9mm size class, because at that point you may as well have a more powerful and economical cartridge. But for a little pocket pistol it's a great caliber and I frequently carry it when the alternative would be not having anything.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Accuracy is dependant on how much time you are willing to put into training. They are about as accurate as you want to make them. Yes, there are other small Pocket guns in the same class that are easier to shoot, mild recoil etc, but still it come down to training. I have seen so many excuses over the past decade.
-They are not range guns
-They are just belly guns
-Do not need to train with them
And on and on. Yet you watch someone who does train with them on a regular basis and they do very well. Also, new shooters and those that do not train often, will spend most of their time just Target shooting these guns. And IMO that is why you see so many wanting a light Crisp trigger. These are not target guns by any means. Training should be fast drawing, point and shoot skills to center mass as quickly as possible.
Spend the right amount of time training and you can handle the gun better, shoot better, shoot longer distances and become immune to the recoil..
If you carry one, train with one. Make it a range gun. They are NOT hard to shoot. They just have a longer training curve.

 

[sequins]

I may have missed it but there's another consideration from my viewpoint and that's accuracy. These tiny .380s are more than difficult to shoot even with defense grade accuracy at more than a few yards. They're also so uncomfortable to shoot that we tend not to practice with them. I'm guilty of this with my LCP which is there but which I tend to not practice with since it actually pinches my hand in use.

To see what I mean, set up a target at 10 yards and try to hit it with your LCP or Kel-Tec or whatnot. I find that to be near impossible where doing so using even a subcompact such as a Shield is simple. While I'm on a bash, I'll also say that IMO, the Shield, for all it's great, makes no sense in .380 except for those who are fantastically recoil sensitive and/or cannot rack the slide on a 40 or other major caliber pistols of that size. Why use a .380 when it'd be just as easy to use a 9 or 40 or even 45 two of which have vastly less expensive practice ammo plus better defense loads.

I bring up accuracy since it's important, IMO. In the case of need, I wish to hit the bad guy but not hit the good guys which is easy at defense range for the aforementioned subcompacts such as the Shield class weapons but is more than problematical with the tiny .380's. Consider: you're in a store. A goblin shows up to rob the place shouting he'll croak everybody there so you having your CCW, swing into action to prevent him from croaking you and the others. You shoot at him but with a tiny .380 you end up wounding the clerk and an innocent shopper. Sure the goblin is legally liable for that but how'd you feel? I know how I'd feel - terrible.

In sum, the best I can say about the tiny .380's is they're better than two things: a .32 or nothing and that's not saying much.

One of the members who posted indicated he has n LCP custom. That model has real sights. Do better sights change your math or is it just too small regardless?

I wanted a no-snag model so I bought the standard edition LCP just this week, and while not an accurate gun by my standards it's a lot smaller than my G26 so for the times I'd prefer to eschew a compact whilst remaining armed, like at work, I am able to do so with the LCP. In such settings I think the accuracy will be adequate for any shot I might take.

 

[slide]

Sights have to help but will they help enough? In my case, 100% no since the issue is my hand is too large for the piece. I end up with a blister on my trigger finger since it drags on the guard due to me having thick fingers. This also happened with the LC9 Pro which is why I traded it off. I also think the truncated sight radius, even with better sights, will be a significant accuracy impediment.

These are all personal issues which don't apply to all, but they do to me. My posts in this regard are my personal opinions rather than me trying to dish out advice I'm unqualified to dish out.

I do remain terrifically skeptical that these tiny pistols will be even defense accurate in the hands of one having an armed confrontation. As much as I wish to be able to defend myself in an emergency, I also don't wish to harm, say a little girl, who just happened to stroll into the 7/11 when the bad stuff started. I feel reasonably confident I am ok with the Shield and up sized pistols. Not so with the sub sub compacts.

 

[murf]

my accuracy with the lcpII:

these are the first three out of 17 targets shot with the lcpII. my goal was to try commercial loads and develop a handload that is best for that gun. anyway, the gun shoots pretty good @ 10 yards.

luck,

murf

 

[sequins]

Sights have to help but will they help enough? In my case, 100% no since the issue is my hand is too large for the piece. I end up with a blister on my trigger finger since it drags on the guard due to me having thick fingers. This also happened with the LC9 Pro which is why I traded it off. I also think the truncated sight radius, even with better sights, will be a significant accuracy impediment.

These are all personal issues which don't apply to all, but they do to me. My posts in this regard are my personal opinions rather than me trying to dish out advice I'm unqualified to dish out.

I do remain terrifically skeptical that these tiny pistols will be even defense accurate in the hands of one having an armed confrontation. As much as I wish to be able to defend myself in an emergency, I also don't wish to harm, say a little girl, who just happened to stroll into the 7/11 when the bad stuff started. I feel reasonably confident I am ok with the Shield and up sized pistols. Not so with the sub sub compacts.

Rick Perry famously got a 'yote at 20 yards, and Zimmerman had a P-11 when he survived his melee encounter with Trayvon Martin. I did a brief search of google and there are numerous examples of lower profile 380 or lower caliber successes in self defense. Usually in close range 1 on 1 encounters where the aggressor is surprised by the presentation of lethal force by the intended victim. I'm confident I can swiftly land hits at 7-15 yards with an LCP retrieved from concealment.

I respect your opinion though and I hope you don't find yourself unarmed more that you would like due to your larger pistol, which was the predicament that drew me to something even more convenient than my g26.

 

[slide]

What was the firearm that Perry used to croak the dog?

I'm with you that I'd much rather have my Kel-Tec with me than wish I had my Smith. I'm not discussing a tiny .380 vs nothing but rather choosing to carry such a small pistol when one physically larger, even if it were in .380 like the new Shield, assuming one can conceal it. But then again, I'd prefer over nothing to have a .32 or a .25 or one of those micro revolvers in .22 lr.

I don't think we're disagreeing. After all, if you can carry it well concealed, don't you agree that a 9 or a 40 or a 10 is better to have than a .380?

 

[MedWheeler]

sequins writes:

Rick Perry famously got a 'yote at 20 yards, and Zimmerman had a P-11 when he survived his melee encounter with Trayvon Martin. I did a brief search of google and there are numerous examples of lower profile 380 or lower caliber successes in self defense. Usually in close range 1 on 1 encounters where the aggressor is surprised by the presentation of lethal force by the intended victim. I'm confident I can swiftly land hits at 7-15 yards with an LCP retrieved from concealment.

Zimmerman had a PF9, a slimmer, lighter pistol than the P11, with a lower ammunition capacity (7 vs. 10 in their magazines.) Both pistols are chambered in 9mm Luger.

I agree that accounts of incidences in which a lawfully-armed citizen deployed a "sub-caliber"* firearm in self-defense, fired said weapon, scored at least one hit, and was still further harmed by a shot suspect that "soldiered on" with his attack after being shot are very, very scant, especially cases in which it can be definitively argued that, had the victim been armed with a firearm chambered in 9mm Luger (and scored the same hits), the outcome would have been different.

* "sub-caliber", meaning a firearm chambered in .22LR, .25ACP, .32ACP, or .380ACP.

 

[slide]

For me, it wasn't that some guy continued to come at me after I shot him with a .380 but rather how undergunned I felt during the two last confrontations. The last guy was 5' 10" or so and between 225 and 250 lbs. I'm terrifically glad that I didn't need to test it, but I felt that had he charged me from the 10' separating us, I'd not have been able to stop him with the sub caliber pistol.

In the previous encounter, about 8 months prior, I was not only uncertain of the stopping power of the cartridge but also my ability to hit the bad guy and not the woman he was trying to kidnap.

Both issues have been resolved with my acquisition of the Shield in 40 and the Glock in 10. In addition, I find I'm at my club every chance I get since both are such fun to shoot. I've put more rounds through those two in the past month or so than I had in two years with the micro .380s.

 

[zaitcev]

Went shooting today and brought the LCP Custom I own with to shoot steel. I've never shot steel with the LCP before, usually just paper, but decided today to try it as steel shooting is a different experience ...

Apropos this, I brought my Glock 42 that was very successful before to a steel match and really peed it down my leg there. It can't move plates on a dueling tree that anyone with a 124 grain 9mm moved. I tried to double-tap a plate, but at 15 yards it was just too challenging for a shooter of my level. You'll have trouble with a spinner and Texas star too. I feel sorry about it, but I'll have to switch to 9mm for matches. It's just the rules of the game.

 

[hdbiker]

Sorry but I don't get the appeal of a .380. A 9mm can be had at about the same size & weight, is much more powerful, and ammo is everywhere at 1/2 the price. Must be a James Bond thing !!! hdbiker

 

[murf]

smaller size and weight is the appeal. my lcpII weighs 13.5 ounces fully loaded with holster. it is 5.25 inches long and 4 inches high. it fits in my pants pocket easily. what's not to love?

murf

 

[slide]

I'm not up on recent developments in .380s, so I am curious if the LCPII is significantly easier to conceal vs the LC9 variants?

 

[Tallball]

"Sorry but I don't get the appeal of a .380. A 9mm can be had at about the same size & weight."

Nope. I have a Beretta Pico, an LCPII, and used to own a P3AT. I also have an LC9s, a Glock 43, and several other 9mm pistols just a little bit larger.

The sizes are not in the same category. I own or have owned just about every small 9mm pistol there is. None of them are/were really pocket-sized for me. I can carry my LCPII in the breast pocket of a flannel shirt, including a pocket holster.

 

[SDGlock23]

The Glock 42 is very easy to shoot, shoots well, has usable sights and is small enough to pocket. I've had LCP's and small Kahrs and the G42 is by far the best shooting 380.

 

[murf]

slide, my smallest 9mm is a glock 19, so you should rely on tallball and his ilk to answer your question.

luck,

murf

 

[Jeb Stuart]

The Glock 42 is very easy to shoot, shoots well, has usable sights and is small enough to pocket. I've had LCP's and small Kahrs and the G42 is by far the best shooting 380.

Wow, you are comparing the Glock 42 to a Kahr CW380? The Glock is huge in comparison. Even the soft shooting Kahr CM9 is smaller and easier to carry. And for a 9mm Micro, it is a pussycat to shoot well. I will choose the Kahr 9mm before a Glock 42.

 

[Tallball]

I carry a Ruger LCR in a cargo pocket 90% of the time. It is extremely hot and humid in North Central Texas most of the year, so I usually wear shorts and a sleeveless t-shirt if I'm not at work.

In the few weeks of weather too cool for shorts I carry an LCP type in the breast pocket of a cover shirt, or something like a G43 or S&W 915 OWB covered by an outer shirt.

In the few days of actual cold weather I carry something like a CA Bulldog or compact CZ clone in a coat pocket.

I didn't know I had an ilk. I feel honored.

 

[jar]

I didn't know I had an ilk. I feel honored.

When I was little and Dad was still away on his trip to North Africa, Italy and the Persian Gulf Mary would come by to do some cooking and help around the house. I always felt sorry for her since when I'd ask her to come out play she'd say "Lawd Chil, can't be playing. I got garments and ancestors and a bone in my foot."

 

[slide]

I carry a Ruger LCR in a cargo pocket 90% of the time. It is extremely hot and humid in North Central Texas most of the year, so I usually wear shorts and a sleeveless t-shirt if I'm not at work.

In the few weeks of weather too cool for shorts I carry an LCP type in the breast pocket of a cover shirt, or something like a G43 or SS&W 915 OWB covered by an outer shirt.

In the few days of actual cold weather I carry something like a CA Bulldog or compact CZ clone in a coat pocket.

I didn't know I had an ilk. I feel honored.

Maybe we both experience or have ilk.

We're moving to south Texas in a few weeks. We just returned from there taking our first load of the move. I carried then, in high 90's, the same as I would here in cooler, drier weather - a Shield 40 IWB. I didn't find the heat or humidity a hindrance to such carry so I'm interested in why of the large variety of weapons you cite.

My understanding based on the training I've had over the years, says that your defense weapon should remain the same or at worst, boil down to two so you can practice and get great familiarity. with what you'll use when the emergencies strike and you're working in a critical situation under diminished capacity such as tunnel vision.

In your case, it strikes me that you're running a vast array of weapons from a how they function view. Going LCR to 915 is a huge leap, for example, but then you throw in the Bulldog and then the gap is vast.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I have great familiarity with all my carry guns. Cost a lot, but that is the price of admission.
Pico-2
Nano-2-
Kahr CM9
Kahr CW380
LCR 9mm
Smith 686
LCP
LC9s
Keltec P32