New to hunting, caliber questions..

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

drbeans

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
47
Location
New Mexico
I just put in for elk hunting this fall and I am beginning to look at my equipment needs as I am anticipating spending some dough. I have never hunted before, though I've been shooting for 12 years or so.

I own an M1A already. I dont feel comfortable hunting with it because I dont think it is accurate enough. I would like a rifle to shoot around 1MOA before I attempt to humanely take a very large animal with it. Plus there is some debate regarding .308 as a good elk round unless you put it right where it counts at under 200 yards. I dont really know what kind of ranges to anticipate, and I would rather err on the side of larger caliber. BUT, I would like to own as few different calibers as possible as I reload and dont want to worry about 6 different calibers. The more weapons that share the same caliber the better as far as I am concerned. SO, the questions....

Is .308 acceptable, if so, Remington 700? Acceptable range to take elk given a proper 180 grain bullet?

If .308 is not acceptable, I would like to go 30'06, because I would like to acquire an M1 Garand in the future. Same question as above. Then what rifle?

Thanks in advance for any advice regarding this or hunting in general. I hate buying equipment twice because I didnt research my decision properly the first time.
 
And can I expect the same accuracy out of a 30'06 as a .308 in general? Between the necessary distances of 100-400 yards?
 
Either of which are great rifles for those distances. The 06 will drop less at the latter part of the distances mentioned. I have had clients shoot elk with everything from .243's to a .460 weatherby. Shot placement is key as in all hunting.
 
.308 is capable, however if you are planning to get an M1 Garand than to me the obvious choice is a .30-06Spfld.
 
I've seen people take moose and elk with the .308. It's plenty capable. But, I'd rather have an '06, even though I have no real love for that caliber either. Given your parameters, go with the .30-06 and a 180-200 grain bullet. I currently load a 190 grain Hornady in some of my friends' .30-06s and a 180 Barnes TSX in another's. Since you reload, you can get those 190s well above 2700 fps and into the low 2800s, which makes for a very capable bullet. Since you're preparing to drop some coin, go all out, get yourself a stainless rifle, a Rem 700 or Ruger 77 is perfectly decent and not too expensive. Don't get crazy with the scope though. Absolutely no good need for large objectives and overboard magnification on the scope. You do not NEED 1 MOA for your elk gun, you've got a 12 inch vital zone, so unless you're thinking you have the skill and terrain to take them past 600 yards, don't worry about that. Just worry about hitting that 12 inch circle at 200 yards from field positions.
 
@ cottswald.....thank you, good write up.

My issue is that I am not looking for the best "elk rifle". Really I am trying to buy a combo rifle that will work for elk. As exbio says, "you do not NEED 1 MOA for your elk gun", no I dont. But I would like to punch paper in the off season and its much less fun with a rifle that groups 6in at 100 yds. Plus I am not sure how I will react to a rifle that kicks like a mule. I would prefer an adequate cartridge I can shoot very well over a more than adequate cartridge that kicks the crap out of me.

Also, can I expect the same accuracy out of 30'06 as .308 all other things being equal?
 
Plus I am not sure how I will react to a rifle that kicks like a mule. I would prefer an adequate cartridge I can shoot very well over a more than adequate cartridge that kicks the crap out of me.
Click to expand...

You are a wise man. I truly admire a man who can admit that he may be sensitive to recoil.

As I'm sure you know, the heavier the bullet, the greater the recoil, but elk are pretty big animals that under certain conditions require a fair amount of penetration from bullets, which typically means, heavier bullets. But there is an answer. The Barnes TSX.

I've not used any .30 caliber TSX's, but I have used a 225 gr. in my Whelen. Three large bulls have fallen to this bullet and even with a muzzle velocity of only 2665, penetration is INSANE. I've only recovered one bullet and it travelled almost the entire length of a bulls body. Point is, TSX's penetrate so well, that hunters typically use a lighter weight (thus lowering recoil) than they would with a "standard" bullet. You could probably use a 165 gr. TSX in either caliber and never look back.

Also, can I expect the same accuracy out of 30'06 as .308 all other things being equal?
Click to expand...

There's a huge argument on this subject on the "Rifle Country" forum. In my experience, the 308 seems more inherently accurate...easier to find a good load for it. I think the fact that benchrest competitors as well as High Power competitors typically choose the 308 over the 30-06 bears this out. But, I own three '06's; a sportered 1903, target-ized 1903A3, and an as-issued 1903A3. All of them wear aperture sights and all of them are extremely accurate with my cast bullet loads.

All that being said, I pick the 30-06. exbiologist summed it up very well. You don't need micro-MOA accuracy and more than that you don't need a scope with a gigantic objective and tons of magnification. My 35 Whelen wears a good, solid Burris 4X and it's worked splendidly for me. Year before last I killed a bull at exactly 355 yds. and it never occurred to me that I needed more magnification.
Once you kill your first bull and you stand over one of these big boys, it's easier to understand why MOA accuracy and a high magnification scopes are not necessary.
Just remember: poke a hole through their lungs, and they wil die.

Good luck,
35W
 
drbeans said:
@ cottswald.....thank you, good write up.

My issue is that I am not looking for the best "elk rifle". Really I am trying to buy a combo rifle that will work for elk. As exbio says, "you do not NEED 1 MOA for your elk gun", no I dont. But I would like to punch paper in the off season and its much less fun with a rifle that groups 6in at 100 yds. Plus I am not sure how I will react to a rifle that kicks like a mule. I would prefer an adequate cartridge I can shoot very well over a more than adequate cartridge that kicks the crap out of me.

Also, can I expect the same accuracy out of 30'06 as .308 all other things being equal?
Click to expand...
You might re-evaluate your M1A load; it really should be capable of 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yards if it's scoped. The load mine likes is 168 gr. bullets over IMR 4064. It should be quite capable of downing an elk at up to 300 to 400 yards.

There is a legend that the 308 cartridge has more inherent accuracy than does the 30/06. I have not found that to be true. In my opinion, in a well made rifle, one will shoot just as well as the other. The 30/06 though will have the velocity advantage when you get to heavier bullets but, in my opinion, you don't really need to go heavier than 168 gr.
 
I may be really stepping in it here, but you might consider the Steyr Scout. Light enough to carry easily in the field, .308 caliber, and it's available with forward mount 2.5 power Leupold scope. Very easy rifle to hit with. Decent from the bench but really shines in the field. Adequate power with proper bullet selection. Factory ammo from Hornady can boost performance to .30-'06 levels with 150/165 grain bullets.
Downside is that it's expensive ($2K or so) and not easy to find.
 
Thanks for the input all.

35
I will look into the TSX.

Grum
My M1A shoots adequately with 168 Gold Medal Match ammo. I am still working on handloads with it. I began handloading .45, still playing with rifle calibers. If a 12 inch circle at 200 yards is fine for elk I am certainly there with the M1.

mahansm
Ya....I'll keep my M1a, maybe move to SOCOM model if I am looking for a shorter, easier to carry version.

Turns out a buddy of mine has a 300 WM. I am going to try it at the range and get a feel for the recoil and performance. It may add another option for me.
 
The M1 is another fine rifle. I would take mine hunting; no problem. My best 100 yard 3 shot group with it with iron sights was about 0.5 inches; not that I think I'll ever be able to do that again in my lifetime.

I can remember a time when I thought 308 Winchester recoil was a bit stiff. When you're used to it, 300 Win. Mag. recoil isn't that bad and it's a very good long range hammer. Maybe I like it more because I've been shooting a 458 Lott and 378 Weatherby for awhile.
 
now that you've added the .300 mag option, you should look into the .300 WSM. It's a short action so lighter rifles are available for it. If you hand load it's not any more expensive than factory .308's. It's great for hunting and target shooting.
 
dr beans,
you have recieved some very sound advice so far. I will echo that a .30-06 will drive heavier bullets faster than a .308 winchester. this will allow you to get some really hard hitting 180 gr rounds.
I will echo what others have said about accuracy. i have a 30-06 and have found it to be moa accurate in a variety of loads. i don't really think any of the new rifles are inaccurate.
an advantage of .30-06 over a great many of the other bigger rounds is ready availability of componants and ready loaded amunition.

The remmy 700 is a really good rifle, so is the x bolt, so is the savage, so is the ruger (et al). look for a stainless one or one finished in that hard matt black that remmy use.

as for a scope. really high magnification is not a benefit. all it does is magnify your errors. don't go for a huge objective lens, it just lifts your head from the stock and lets you feel more recoil. I have a bushnell trophy 3-9 x 40 mounted on ironsighter rings and a one piece mount on my model 7. It is a good scope, good in low light, holds its zero well enough. it is better quality than it's price might suggest. What i would say is that if i had the money i would buy a hungarian schmit and bender 6 x 42.

if was in your boots i would buy a remmy 700 synthetic stainless in .30-06 sprg. a decent 40mm obj lens scope and mounts. and some 180 gr bonded or partition bullets.

Whilst the vitals area on an elk is pretty big you need to shoot your new rifle a lot to get to know it. learn to shoot off of sticks etc. you should be able to hit a coke can off your sticks at 100 yards every time. This will increase your confidence. you will be calmer on the shot (buck fever is not to be sneezed at, i have seen novices shake like a sh**ting dog at the sight of a buck in crosshairs). You will place the bullet in the heart. not just shoot at the animal. check out the vitals sticky at the top of this thread.

look at pictures of the elk in various positions and put the mouse pointer at where you will aim. reference it against the pictures in the vitals sticky. That point is the target. not the 12 inch circle.

Good luck my friend.

we need regular updates.
 
Hard to find a bolt-action rifle in today's world that's not right at one MOA, from right out of the box. And, if not, minor tweaking is about all that's needed to get one MOA.

I'm not an elk hunter, but from what I've read here and at TFL during the last dozen years, a lot of folks seem quite happy from using a .308 on elk. I've yet to read of folks moving to Heartbreak Hotel on account of using one.
 
After having several rifles over the years, I wanted to simplify things and get one do-all rifle, specifically one that would be adequate for elk and not overkill for deer. Knowing from a previous elk hunt in the mountains that a 10+ pound gun is painful to carry, I decided for something light.

I decided on a Tikka T3 Lite Stainless in 30-06 with a 4-12 Redfield Revolution scope. It is as accurate as most any custom gun and comes in around 7 pounds. Out the door it was around $800 for the whole package. I'd highly recommend one.
 
shaggy430 said:
After having several rifles over the years, I wanted to simplify things and get one do-all rifle, specifically one that would be adequate for elk and not overkill for deer. Knowing from a previous elk hunt in the mountains that a 10+ pound gun is painful to carry, I decided for something light.

I decided on a Tikka T3 Lite Stainless in 30-06 with a 4-12 Redfield Revolution scope. It is as accurate as most any custom gun and comes in around 7 pounds. Out the door it was around $800 for the whole package. I'd highly recommend one.
Click to expand...
I didn't think there was any such thing as "overkill."
 
I didn't think there was any such thing as "overkill."
Click to expand...

I took the time to give the OP a full well thought out answer to his question. Hopefully he will take more from it than you did.
 
You have a 12" kill zone but I wouldn't take a gun that I might shoot 300yds at game that didn't shoot within 1.5" at 100yds.
The 308 & 06 will do your job at that distance quite well and I doubt you will notice any difference in recoil between the 2.
Personally for either of those calibers I would shoot 165/168 gr bullets and have had good luck with the Hornady and Sierra brand in those calibers.
A good waterproof 3x9 or straight 6 power scope is my preference with those loads and that type of hunting.
Last but not least, if you shoot your buddies 300WM and don't mind the recoil and want to get into elk hunting do your self a favor and buy the 300 to start with because odds are you will end up with that in the end. You can send a bigger bullet as fast or faster than either of the other 2 options.
Unless you are a committed re loader stay away from calibers you don't see at your local hardware/walmart.
 
drbeans
You mentioned shooting the .300WM from a bench. Not the best idea. Crawl up the stock tooooooo for and you join the order of the "half moon".

If you must shoot off a bench try one that will almost allow you to stand up.IMHO
 
Thanks all for your input. I will provide an update when I decide. I took a look at the Tikka and the 700. I think I prefer the 700. The Tikka has more plastic than I would like. Caliber still up in the air. I enjoy target shooting, so I am leaning toward the .308. If I get serious about hunting, then I can go buy a .300. Nothing wrong with having to buy another rifle.
 
Many people feel that a medium bore magnum (.300WIN, 7mmREM, .300WBY, etc) is really required to take Elk. The fact is though, that thousands of hunters have taken Elk cleanly with the classic .270 and .30-06 cartriges in the last hundred years or so. A gun like that is also just fine for just about any medium-large game found in the lower 48.

Just my opinion. ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
  • Locked
Best Hunting Caliber?
2 3 4 5
Replies
119
Views
5K
Art Eatman
A
T
  • Locked
Suppressed rifle for elk?
2 3
Replies
53
Views
7K
H&Hhunter
H&Hhunter
B
  • Locked
Best Choice Caliber For Cow Elk Hunt
Replies
11
Views
1K
JKimball
J
L
  • Locked
Walking Varmit/Hunting rifle
2
Replies
44
Views
2K
skinewmexico
S
K
  • Locked
guided preserve hunt...rifle (caliber) & shotgun (rifled vs sabot) ???'s
Replies
6
Views
560
one-shot-one
O
Back
Top