New troubles for Firearms training factility in July 4th death.

[mindwip]

Zip line? I'm sorry, but my ignorance is showing. What is a zip line?

Was the man sliding down a rope and hit his head?

Yes your right. A zip line is a rope or steel cable or two steel cables. It starts at a high point and travels to a low point. The rope that connects these two points is the "line" the zip part is when you put on a harness and travel over the cable, gravity pulls you over the "line" thus you are zipping of the line. Hence its called a zip line. Not really very creative naming thou

And yes he was sliding down and hit a lift at the end of the line.

OK kind of think I know what a zip line is. However, accidents
happen.

Yes accidents happen, but when you cause an accident through criminal neglect you can get sued or go to jail. Here is another way of saying it. In Ca you are protected as a good samaritan. They made this law becuase people were on the road side dieing and passer bys would not help. They did not want to help because often times in the prosses of helping they might hurt the person they are helping. And get sued fro no reason.

Example doing CPR it is easy and common to break ribs, its just excepted. Whats a broken rid to giving someone life. People were suing for getting there ribs broken. Never mind the fact there life was saved. So a law passed saying if you help some one and do it part way right you cant get sued. Its just a accident they got hurt. But if i were to try to do CPR on someone by jumping up and down on there chest with my feet, then i may be tried for neglectful acts. Thats the difference between an accident and a neglectful accident.

Thats what they are being sued for. Any lawyers to back me up on that. My business law is not the best right now.

BTW, those of you saying that the platform should be at the end of the zip-line, instead of the middle, have never ridden a zip line. You zip down, past the point where the cable sags the lowest, then go back and forth til your momentum ceases. A recovery platform at the end of the line would be useless

Sorry but there is more then one way to make a zip line that is safe. Have you ever used a zip line to travel in a jungle. Or used one when rock climbing to bridge a gap, to get your 70lb packs over and lesser climbers. It would be pointless to have you stop in the middle and then pull your self over half way. Most of the zip lines i have been on were from one end to the other. Platform to platform. There is no danger of hitting anything because of breaking. You dont let your self go balls out all the way. But these are also ones for poeple who are trained in zip lines too. If i was setting up a "fun" line i would do the stopping at middle. If i was setting up a line with people who knew the basics, i would have it so they could barely reach the other end, with no breaking. If they braked at all they would stop short and have to pull them selfs.

 

[Calhoun]

Sorry but there is more then one way to make a zip line that is safe. Have you ever used a zip line to travel in a jungle. Or used one when rock climbing to bridge a gap, to get your 70lb packs over and lesser climbers. It would be pointless to have you stop in the middle and then pull your self over half way. Most of the zip lines i have been on were from one end to the other. Platform to platform. There is no danger of hitting anything because of breaking. You dont let your self go balls out all the way. But these are also ones for poeple who are trained in zip lines too. If i was setting up a "fun" line i would do the stopping at middle. If i was setting up a line with people who knew the basics, i would have it so they could barely reach the other end, with no breaking. If they braked at all they would stop short and have to pull them selfs.

I believe you are refering to a tyrolean traverse. Very similar to a zipline, however. The zipline that is being discussed here is the type that you would find on a challenge/ropes course. Those are either gravity braked. (There are some that employ a friction break, but very few of those are built now. And they aren't all that fun.)

 

[mindwip]

They can both be called a zipline. Everyone i know, plus definitions on the net/books i have say there called ziplines. I have also heard Death Ropes used too by some, but in a less formal saying. It may be a location thing but in Ca i have never heard the tyrolean traverse used as a term. Or in 4 other Countries for that matter. I believe its the same difference as abseiling and rappelling. Both are right.

ps Also i am using the term, Front Sight is.

 

[Henry Bowman]

The person at fault was the guy at the tower, not this poor 16 year old kid who maybe saved the daughters life by getting her out of the way.

Yep. Sure looks that way.

BTW, those of you saying that the platform should be at the end of the zip-line, instead of the middle, have never ridden a zip line. You zip down, past the point where the cable sags the lowest, then go back and forth til your momentum ceases. A recovery platform at the end of the line would be useless.

I have done it (in Costa Rica) from platform to platform 200' in the air in the canopy of a rain forest surrounded by monkeys and exotic birds. Out of about 20 lines, only 2 (including the last one) ended at the ground. Even then there was no raise-and-lower platform.

We were instructed how to control our speed (as described earlier in this thread). A staff person at the end of each line would signal to speed up or slow down. My wife misinterpreted one of the signals and did a "George of the Jungle" into the tree platform. [Wish I had it on video ] A few scrapes, but the staff person reacted quickly to grab her as she came in and minimize impact. Never felt unreasonably unsafe at all.

 

[zeroskillz]

that'll be a big settlement for sure.

 

[buzz_knox]

Unfortunate accident, but that's what it is !!! Law suit, huh?
Civilization must have arrived!!!!

Actually, in those circumstances, civilization constituted the gov't declaring itself immune from liability for accidents involving officers or recruits. Lawsuits have been filed against manufacturers of defective equipment involved in such accidents.

In this case, unless a waiver of liability was executed and won't be found to violate public policy, there is no immunity to suit.

 

[Bwana John]

It may be a location thing but in Ca i have never heard the tyrolean traverse used as a term. Or in 4 other Countries for that matter. I believe its the same difference as abseiling and rappelling. Both are right.

I would NOT call a tyrolean traverse and a zip line the same thing.

A tyrolean traverse is a mountaineering tecnique, a zipline is somthing to amuse in a ropes/adventure corse.

The only way a "zipline" would be used in mountaineering would be to quickly lower a pack or other small object, not a human body.

But then again I have never been a gym rat.

I was thinking when I first saw this that the were shooting as thy went down the zipline.

 

[buzz_knox]

I was thinking when I first saw this that the were shooting as thy went down the zipline.

I believe Correia has posted about doing this, although not at Front Sight.

 

[Correia]

Yeah, I shot from a zipline at the MGM Ironman. It was organized and perfectly safe.

And if you can focus on your front sight at 25 miles an hour, forty feet in the air, you can focus anytime.

 

[nplant]

There are always liability waivers executed at Front Sight. Always. They're generally well worded, and give you the idea that, "Hey, I'm about to engage in an activity that *could* get me hurt or worse."

Should the authorities investigating the accident decide that there is neglect, and then deem it criminal, I'm not aware of any waiver that can get someone out of it.

Again, though, I'll state plainly that every single instructor I've ever worked with (either as a fellow instructor or as a student) at Front Sight has been professional, serious, and safety-conscious to a high degree. I would personally be very surprised if criminal neglect is the final answer in this case, but I won't say it's impossible. People are individuals, and at any given time, someone's judgment may lapse to a so-called criminal level in the eyes of another. I do know that the instructor on the platform would gladly trade places with Jesus, if it were possible.

 

[mindwip]

The only way a "zipline" would be used in mountaineering would be to quickly lower a pack or other small object, not a human body.

But then again I have never been a gym rat.

I hope your not implying i am a gym rat? On the whole thats not nice. Because about 98% of my climbing has been on real rock, setting up my own routes. The only time i go to a gym is when my friends want to try rock climbing for the first time. I go there to give them a taste to see if they like it. Oh and my parents sent me to a gym summer camp when i was 13 at Rockreation, for 3 summers in a row.

I still stand by, that my friends/instructors call both a zipline and tyrolean traverse the same thing. After looking up the definition of tyrolean traverse i know what it is and have used it thou under a different name. But every one i know calls both of them the same thing. It may not be right grammar wise but thats what we call it. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

 

[Cosmoline]

Personally, I ain't gettin' on anything called "zip" OR "Tyrolean."

 

[akodo]

Accidents can and do happen. We humans are falible creatures. It is very understandable that someone does something too soon because they weren't paying enough attention to X Y or Z, or whatever.

I still see negligence here.

It was definately not the fault of the 16 year old.

However, employing a 16 year old in that function brings questions to my mind about the saftey mindset of the upper managment.

I grew up on a farm, and operated heavy machinery helping out. At 16 you can be mature, and at 18, or 21, you can be immmature. However, there are more immature people at age 16 than there are at 21. This is why you cannot be a schoolbus driver at the age of 16. When you are operating the machinery with just yourself, it is one thing, when you are servicing customers, it is entirely different. Also, a young person is less likely to call more senior members on unsafe practices. Something like "Hey, you are letting them go before I am fully lowered on the ground, knock that **** off!"

Because people are falible, elimiate as much potential risk as possible. This includes playing the odds and selecting people over the age of 18 to operate dangerous equipment when it involves other people.

And on that same note, there should have been helmets worn. You don't wear a helmet, you don't buckle your seatbelt, you don't carry CCW because you know you need it, you do it because maybe, just maybe, you do. That is why this is going to be negligent death. They had helmets there in the past, they made people wear them in the past (from previous posters).

Also it strikes me as questioning the mindset. As others have posted, there are so many parallels between firearms saftey, and just the concept of 'have the firearm just in case' that I really wonder if they are only paying lipservice to that idea, because if they would truely embrace that concept whole-heartedly (along with the doctrine of best way to avoid a fight is don't go down that way in the first place) then using helmets would ahve been first and foremost in their minds

 

[Red State]

Lawsuit

It will be interesting see what will happen in this case.

I just happen to have a business law reference book sitting on my desk. Here is what it says about negligence:

For a plaintiff to win a negligence lawsuit, they must prove five elements.
1. Duty of Due Care: The defendant had a duty to care for the plaintiff.
In this instance it seems reasonable that the instructor at the top of the zip line had a duty to check that Valencia's harness was secure, helmet was on properly, and that the cable was clear.

2. Breach: The defendant breached his/her duty.
The facts of this event seem to indicated that the instructor did not check to ensure that the cable was clear.

3. Factual Cause: The defendant's conduct actually caused the injury.
If the instructor gave the green light to the deceased, then this is a problem for the instructor. (It will be interesting to hear the details of what happened on the platform. For example, was there any miscommunication between Valencia and the instructor? Did Valencia disregard direction from the instructor?)

4. Foreseeable Harm: It was foreseeable that the defendant's conduct might cause this type of harm.
Obviously it is foreseeable that sending someone down a zip line that is not confirmed to be clear might result in them hitting something at a high rate of speed. And hitting something at a high rate of speed might result in serious injury or death. Again, this does not look good for the instructor.

5. Injury: The plaintiff has actually been hurt.
The wife lost her husband. That definetely qualifies as an injury (an injury does not have to be physical; it can be monetary or emotional)

All things considered, looks like a tough spot for the instructor and/or Front Sight. His defense may hinge upon the deceased disobeying direction or being partially responsible in some other way.

PS. Nplant is right. A waiver does not mean that the participants lose their rights and that Front Sight can abandon all reasonable safety precautions without fear of consequenses.

Criminal Negligence: A gross deviation from reasonable conduct.
A book example of this is a hunter who sees movement in the woods and shoots at it without bothering to determine if it is game or a human.

The key question here is whether or not the instructor's conduct was reasonable. (subjective, I know.)

 

[Average Guy]

Thank you, Calhoun, for a lucid and level-headed explanation free from thinly veiled bias.

As for some of you others, if you don't like FS, just say it. To declare that one fatal accident in however many years of operation smacks of religious zealotry or institutional negligence is just ludicrous. I've had my issues with FS, but I don't consider this incident as somehow "bound to happen."

What does ziplining have to do with gun training? The same thing, I guess, as shooting from the door of a helicopter in flight. They're both just FUN. When I build my shooting ranch/SHTF compound, you can bet I'll have a zipline. You know, for the children.