New US armed forces/DoD XM9 contract; CNN.....

[JeeperCreeper]

I just hope they pick SIG so I don't have to listen to SIG-lovers whine about how Beretta "cheated" all those years ago... I'm taking my ball and going home!!!

 

[jamal28]

I hope the us military doesn't cheat s&w out of a contract like they did last time

 

[RustyShackelford]

Smith & Wesson, 1980s XM9, holsters....

First, S&W put out a 3rd generation prototype, a carbon steel 5900 series that IMO wasn't fully ready for the mid 1980s XM9 tests. Smith and Wesson had the regular 459 a "double stack" 9x19mm that had a few fans.
The later(1988) 5900 & 3900 production line were much better.
Time, logistics & luck were going against Smith & Wesson in the 1980s.

Now, in 2015, the new XM9 trials will be more in their favor with a new M&P.

Id add that the Bianchi M12 holster is okay but from what I know(Im not on active duty); the combat troops & officers use Blackhawk SERPAs, Safariland & after market leather shoulder holsters more than any M9/M12 series 80s era Bianchi holsters.
The new Safariland AS7 holster line looks very good.
That could be produced in large contracts, it's a US firm with decades of law enforcement/private sector customers & the holster is very durable.
The security design won't snag or break like the SERPA can with snow, dirt, mud, crud, etc.
For now the holsters are only limited to the Beretta M9/92FS, Glocks, M&P. Safariland says new security holsters will be released soon.

 

[hot chili powder]

New military pistol

No one mentions Ruger or CZ......both have GREAT handguns and should try to get Uncle Sam's business. Any thoughts on this?

 

[RustyShackelford]

Ruger

Again, review the old XM9 T&E articles or reports.
Ruger sent up the "new" alloy frame P85 9x19mm. It had a unit cost of approx $295.00 which even by today's economy or inflation would have been great.
The problem was the Ruger P85 fell way short in the testing. Ruger decided to drop out rather than dump $$$ into a new format they would lose.
FWIW: the P85 9mm was later modified into the robust, good selling P89 pistol.
Also the WI state police considered the P85 in the big 9x19mm craze but even they later said; nah... .
I've heard of a few small PDs that use Ruger P90s or 345s but none use or allow SR models. I've never seen any cops or troopers using Rugers. None.

Rusty

 

[jamal28]

Rustyshackelford you really think m&p has a good chance of winning... only reason i ask is because there going up against serious competition like fn, hk, sig, and glock. Not to doubt s&w or the m&p design but those are some industry giants that have had experience dealing with govt contracts.

 

[m9meatball]

Don't forget about the Beretta PX4 tactical. That gun was developed for government test just a few years ago. I am betting that a lot of the criteria will still be the same. And as a question, can striker fired pistols produce enough firing pin energy to satisfy the government? If I were a betting man I would say that the one criteria that will be there is hammer fired.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Realistic.....

I think Smith & Wesson/GD have good odds.
As of now: 12/2014, Id say the front runners to a new full scale handgun/sidearm would be: SIG Sauer, S&W & Glock. I think HK USA got burned with the Mark 23 SOCOM .45acp pistol & they had long delays in the DHS pistol contracts.
FNH has a decent chance but like I posted before, I highly doubt the US armed forces would buy a new gun from the same firm that had the pistol used in the tragic Fort Hood Texas event.
Now some gun owners like the FNH .45acp & say it's a great service pistol. I'm just being honest. That stigma & - press might be a factor for FNH. Fair or not.


RS

 

[crazysccrmd]

I'm pretty sure there is no stigma against the use of FNH products in the military, especially given the fact that they are already in extensive use. That's like saying police departments won't buy Glocks since they've been used to kill cops in the past.

 

[jamal28]

Wow i didnt know hk had delays in there dhs contract... i really like the fnx45 heck 15 rounds of .45acp in a reliable and accurate platform... but i think s&w made a big power move by joining forces with general dynamics.

 

[Balrog]

Looks like a big waste of tax dollars to me. There are lots of good designs already. No reason to spend a lot of money redeveloping whats already been developed.
Hopefully they will go with the low bidder.

 

[Gtscotty]

FNH has a decent chance but like I posted before, I highly doubt the US armed forces would buy a new gun from the same firm that had the pistol used in the tragic Fort Hood Texas event.

I really don't think this will be a factor, the .gov has been successfully dealing with FN for quite a while in small arms contracts, and I doubt one lunatic's pistol choice will overshadow all of those years of solid performance.

Other than that I agree with your guesses on the front runners, it will be interesting to see if anything comes from this contract.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Short term memory....

I'm not saying it won't be a major factor but it may come up.
It's true, one incident shouldn't be blamed or put on the gun manufacturer but we don't live in a perfect world.
Id add that the US Secret Service has deployed the P90 SMG in 5.7mm for a few years now with + results.
That may help FNH-USA in the tests.
Time will tell in 2015/2016 who will get the sidearm contract(s).

 

[Panzerschwein]

If they aren't going to allow hollowpoints than a round like the .50 GI with a SWC 300 or so grain bullet would be a no-brainer.

Heck, that's near as big as a 9mm hollow point expanded and recoil is not much worse than .45 ACP. I'd imagine a "semi-stack" magazine could be made that isn't all the way stacked or single, should allow for at least 10 carts per mag. Put that package in a Glock 21 size frame with pic rails and we are G2G says this cowboy.

 

[Nom de Forum]

If they aren't going to allow hollowpoints than a round like the .50 GI with a SWC 300 or so grain bullet would be a no-brainer.

Heck, that's near as big as a 9mm hollow point expanded and recoil is not much worse than .45 ACP. I'd imagine a "semi-stack" magazine could be made that isn't all the way stacked or single, should allow for at least 10 carts per mag. Put that package in a Glock 21 size frame with pic rails and we are G2G says this cowboy.

I think pigs will fly before that happens. The G21 frame size is too large for too many users' hand size and that is without wearing gloves that are frequently worn even in warm climatic conditions to avoid burns and abrasions. A 300 grain projectile would produce too much recoil at any velocity greater than approximately 600fps for most users. The 265 grain bullet for the the .455 Webley at 600fps is tough enough for some people to manage. I think the next pistol adopted that is not a 9mm will shoot a smaller and lighter bullet much faster with less recoil and better body armor penetration and rely on bullet upset for increased incapacitation/lethality. Big very slow bullets do not penetrate body armor. If the next pistol is a 9mm it will not be a M1911 or DA/SA, it will probably be striker fired with a Glock/M&P type of action and have a thumb safety.

 

[Torian]

I'm glad to see the Beretta go for us. I've done a lot of training with it over the years, and I've never been a fan of the platform. For me, it's a mediocre handgun in all respects. I would love to see a move to a proven system like the Sig 220, since we will never be shooting anything but FMJs.

All that aside, I would agree with earlier assessments that it is an absurd waste of taxpayer dollars. Due to sequestration, more and more of my peers have been getting booted from the force, and very few of them are anything but hard-chargers. We don't have money to keep experienced and talented workers, but we do have money for new uniforms and sidearms we don't need.

That's your dysfunctional government in a nutshell folks!

 

[RustyShackelford]

Sad but true....

The last post had a lot of merit.

The US armed forces & DoD seem to be making a few odd choices.
When I served we had only 2 types of camo: woodland & desert. Now, all the service branches have different camo, uniforms, boots, headgear etc.

I could go on about our military's progress.

 

[Zerodefect]

It's going to cost more to keep the M9's running than it will to replace them. The M9's are dying, nothing can be done to stop that. Nothing lasts forever.

The old camo didn't work. And it especially won't work if it's the wrong color. Should have as many choices as we need.

The M&P is the best pick so far. Not sure how I feel about the external safety. I wish it was harder to turn on. It has a very easy throw. Safety on to re-holster, safety off once in the holster. Hopefully it won't accidentally get turned on by accident.

 

[crazysccrmd]

If the choice is a pistol with modular grip pieces I wonder how much will be budgeted for replacement costs. Anyone who's been around the military for a bit can tell you that little things like that are an absolute pain to keep accountability of.

 

[HexHead]

FN knows how to sell guns to the military. The fact is there are probably a dozen guns now that would be good choices. Its not like the 80s where everyone knew it would be Sig or Beretta. I don't see them getting rid of the requirement for a safety so probably not a Glock.

Glock has provided safeties for contract pistols in the past, so not an issue. The Brits picked the Glock 17 to replace their BHPs. They've served on the same battlefields we have for years and their needs aren't any different than ours.

Of course in typical DOD manner, these tests will probably get cancelled half way through and more Berettas ordered.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Company movements....

I can tell you from personal experience, any time a US Army company moves there will be losses, equipment or vehicles damaged, parts missing etc.

I agree with the members that a sidearm that needs a lot of adjustments or extra parts/tools wouldn't be good.
The back-strap/grips on the Military & Police or 4th gen series Glocks would be the limit(for field use).
Glocks lack of a formal manual safety shouldn't DQ it. The SIG M11 compact has no safety & it's been in regular service with many units since the early 1990s.
A TDA or tradional double action format would be ideal but soldiers could safely carry a striker fired model.

 

[dogtown tom]

RustyShackelford ...... I highly doubt the US armed forces would buy a new gun from the same firm that had the pistol used in the tragic Fort Hood Texas event.

Guess who manufactures the majority of small arms for the U.S. military.......that would be FN.

RustyShackelford .....Id add that the US Secret Service has deployed the P90 SMG in 5.7mm for a few years now with + results.

I have numerous USSS agents as customers and friends. To a man, they laugh at the debacle that is the P90. Contrary to internet legend, Special Agents carry AR's (specifically Knights Armament). The only USSS detail that still carries the P90 is the Uniformed Division (formerly called the White House Police). Several have told me that numerous field offices returned their P90's to the DC office.

 

[herrwalther]

Glocks lack of a formal manual safety shouldn't DQ it. The SIG M11 compact has no safety & it's been in regular service with many units since the early 1990s.

The military is going to list criteria of what the next handgun must have. To reduce cost, they will either stick with the M9 or go with a similar design to streamline maintenance and training. Glock meets 0 of the requirements for the M9 contract. It is not DA/SA, have a manual safety, hammer fired, etc. The Sig M11 is not in wide field use. It is used by the Army pistol marksmanship team, a very very small group of "soldiers," CID and aviators. Even soldiers in those branches and jobs can have long careers and may never see a M11.

 

[Fiv3r]

I still think FN has a good shot at this:

• They already have multiple contracts with the US, thus they could afford to package a sweetheart deal regarding parts and service.
  
• They already operate here in the US.
  
• They offer two pistol lines that would meet most of the criteria they brass would ask for in both a striker and hammer fired gun.
  
• The FNS is a striker fired gun that comes standard with either a manual safety or without.
  
• The FNX is a hammer-fired gun that is traditional DA/SA but can still be carried cocked and locked if a particular military outfit deems that prudent.
  
• Both pistols can be configured to fit various hand sizes (even if the back straps are a little flimsy)

I'm not saying that they are the best gun out there. I think that S&W or SIG or Beretta or Glock are all fine manufacturers. As always, politics and palm greasing will probably (certainly) come into play.

 

[Zerodefect]

The unicorn FN FNS stands a chance. But the other FN FNX is out. Pretty sure they want something better than a DA/SA pistol. I'll be startled if they pick a M9 again, even if it is FN's version of a M9.

General Dynamics should know who to bribe. Another arrow in S&W's quiver.