REAPER4206969
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Which one promotes the use of the slide stop?
Newbie question - close slide by racking or by pressing slide stop
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REAPER4206969
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John Wayne
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Whichever feels more comfortable to you. The slingshot method is more universal, and has few drawbacks, IMO. A lot of people seem to pinch their fingers when they do it on my Ruger Mk. II (reinforcing not to ride it forward 
) A lot of guns have small slide stops, because the manufacturer did not intend for it to be used as a slide release (Glocks, for example). The advantage to using the slide stop is that it allows you to have a firing grip on the gun as you close the slide.
) A lot of guns have small slide stops, because the manufacturer did not intend for it to be used as a slide release (Glocks, for example). The advantage to using the slide stop is that it allows you to have a firing grip on the gun as you close the slide.
gc70
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There are too many variables for there to be an absolute answer to the question. Use the method that works well for you.
Shawn Dodson
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You’ll fall back on your training and experience.
There are some who release the slide lock after seating a magazine out of fear they’ll short stroke the slide and produce a stoppage. This fear apparently doesn’t apply to Tap, Rack, in which the slide is also retracted and released. The practice of manually releasing the slide lock doesn’t provide training and experience in racking the slide, so when the slide must be racked to clear a stoppage, the shooter has less training and experience to fall back on to properly perform the task. The fear can be a self-fulfilling prophesy.
The practice of releasing the slide lock after seating the magazine reinforces the two actions as an ingrained response: seat the magazine AND reflexively release the slide lock. This can create a dilemma when clearing a doublefeed stoppage as the slide is usually in battery when the magazine is seated. A shooter who has ingrained the habit of automatically releasing the slide lock after seating a magazine is going to seat the magazine and then most likely attempt to manually release the slide lock instead of racking the slide to chamber a round. Releasing the slide lock is a more familiar movement after seating the magazine than racking the slide.
Cheers!
There are some who release the slide lock after seating a magazine out of fear they’ll short stroke the slide and produce a stoppage. This fear apparently doesn’t apply to Tap, Rack, in which the slide is also retracted and released. The practice of manually releasing the slide lock doesn’t provide training and experience in racking the slide, so when the slide must be racked to clear a stoppage, the shooter has less training and experience to fall back on to properly perform the task. The fear can be a self-fulfilling prophesy.
The practice of releasing the slide lock after seating the magazine reinforces the two actions as an ingrained response: seat the magazine AND reflexively release the slide lock. This can create a dilemma when clearing a doublefeed stoppage as the slide is usually in battery when the magazine is seated. A shooter who has ingrained the habit of automatically releasing the slide lock after seating a magazine is going to seat the magazine and then most likely attempt to manually release the slide lock instead of racking the slide to chamber a round. Releasing the slide lock is a more familiar movement after seating the magazine than racking the slide.
Cheers!
RobMoore
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Shawn, I lock the slide to the rear on a secondary malfunction clearance (such as a doublefeed), and the slide release remains a viable method for that as well. Doing this makes magazine removal easier, and the obstruction usually falls free, whereas slides that are forward retain the obstruction until the shooter cycles the gun. Cycling the gun is tougher with a magazine in your hand, so most people are taught to strip it free to the ground. Now they have one less magazine (which may have been their last).
I use, have used, and teach to lock it open, pull the mag, observe that the gun is clear, fix it if it isn't, reseat the mag, slide forward. Whereas the key words for the immediate action are "Tap Rack Bang", the key words here would be "Lock, Pull, Look, Load".
I don't find that using the slide release for reloads causes any hesitation to clear a malfunction with tap-rack. Drilling tap-rack with random dummy rounds makes the clearance a reaction to the failure.
Perhaps the self-fulfilling prophesy is those who think using the slide release won't work for them under stress, so they always train to tug on the slide. When they do decide one day to try the slide release, maybe with a little induced stress, they fail and attribute it to the technique being poor instead of their lack of practice at it.
I use, have used, and teach to lock it open, pull the mag, observe that the gun is clear, fix it if it isn't, reseat the mag, slide forward. Whereas the key words for the immediate action are "Tap Rack Bang", the key words here would be "Lock, Pull, Look, Load".
I don't find that using the slide release for reloads causes any hesitation to clear a malfunction with tap-rack. Drilling tap-rack with random dummy rounds makes the clearance a reaction to the failure.
Perhaps the self-fulfilling prophesy is those who think using the slide release won't work for them under stress, so they always train to tug on the slide. When they do decide one day to try the slide release, maybe with a little induced stress, they fail and attribute it to the technique being poor instead of their lack of practice at it.
Nighthawk recommends only using the slide stop to release the slide. Their reasoning is that over time, unequal pressure can cause uneven wear on the slide rails. Sounds logical to me, though I doubt I'd ever put enough rounds through mine in this lifetime to cause that problem. But I'm sure for some shooters it's a possibility.
But what do they know compared to some high speed, low drag instructor?
But what do they know compared to some high speed, low drag instructor?
Logical answers have no place on the internet.
RobMoore
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Hmmm, I'd like to see a gun with that problem, as we're only talking about the force exerted by manually cycling the gun rearward less than one quarter of an inch, once out of every 7-8 rounds fired.
REAPER4206969
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They know much more about making range toys.
LRS_Ranger
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This just in, using your gun will cause parts wear... best leave it in the safe...
LiveLife
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Wow, page 6 and we are still at it!
How about this?
Both methods will chamber a round from the magazine.
Whichever method we choose to use to practice, we practice enough to master it with our eyes closed.
However ....
This is what our range master did with every new SWAT student:
We fight like we train.
He said to master releasing the slide with the weak hand also - which would make racking the slide with the non-shooting hand the obvious choice, unless your shooting hand was injured. He said the worst time to fumble releasing the slide with your weak hand was when the bullets were flying. He said use whatever method we preferred, as long as we could consistently, reliably and quickly release the slide after it was locked from the last round fired and new magazine inserted.
What if you mastered both methods?
For this reason, I am welcoming new gun models with ambi-slide release features. Of course, M&P already has it.
How about this?
Both methods will chamber a round from the magazine.
Whichever method we choose to use to practice, we practice enough to master it with our eyes closed.
However ....
This is what our range master did with every new SWAT student:
We fight like we train.
He said to master releasing the slide with the weak hand also - which would make racking the slide with the non-shooting hand the obvious choice, unless your shooting hand was injured. He said the worst time to fumble releasing the slide with your weak hand was when the bullets were flying. He said use whatever method we preferred, as long as we could consistently, reliably and quickly release the slide after it was locked from the last round fired and new magazine inserted.
What if you mastered both methods?
For this reason, I am welcoming new gun models with ambi-slide release features. Of course, M&P already has it.
after you have both methods ingrained, it's time to move to advanced techniques...like one handed chambering. i highly recommend you practice this...a lot...with snap caps, to begin with
RobMoore
Member
Not a problem. I shoot an M&P.
Here's a video showing Israeli point-shooting classes, and you can see in several places that they rack the slide while pushing the gun back forward on target. Just because it's a video doesn't mean it's "correct," but it's a good illustration of the technique under discussion.
LiveLife
Member
Exactly.
I have a feeling that more and more gun manufacturers will add this feature in their future line up. Taurus G2 and 822 models already have the ambi-slide lock too. I think Gen5 Glocks will have ambi-slide lock also.
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Shawn Dodson
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RobMoore writes:
In post #59, I presented the progressive, nondiagnostic techniques that I use for clearing stoppages.
I don’t have to look at the gun to successfully clear any stoppage. (Indeed, lighting conditions or my eyes not being adapted to the dark or my night vision being ruined by a flashlight beam to the eyes, may prevent me from seeing my gun clearly.) I don’t even try to figure out what’s causing the problem. I just perform a series of actions that will eventually clear the stoppage. If one series of actions fail to get the gun running I immediate progress to the next series of actions. I can perform these actions on the move, and I can perform them with very little mental effort so my mind is free to sense and react to the danger I’m facing.
In short, if the gun doesn’t fire when I press the trigger, I immediately perform Tap, Roll & Rack. This will clear any stoppage except a depleted magazine or a doublefeed.
If Tap, Roll & Rack fail, I immediately progress to performing a Combat Reload because I’m more likely to have shot the gun to slide lock than to have experienced a doublefeed, and I can get the gun running quicker if all that’s needed is a simple Combat Reload.
If, while performing the Combat Reload, I can’t install the fresh magazine because the “depleted” magazine is stuck in the magazine well, I just put the fresh magazine between the ring and pinky fingers of my firing hand, to quickly and smoothly clear my support hand for operating the slide. I lock the slide to the rear to remove recoil spring tension on the jammed cartridge, just like you, to make it easier to remove the stuck magazine. (It can either be discarded or, if it’s your only magazine, put between your ring and pinky fingers.) When I have the magazine removed, I cycle the slide three times to clear the action, and then complete the Combat Reload (Seat, Roll & Rack).
Whenever I seat a magazine, either loading or Combat Reload, I exploit the action as a training opportunity to replicate and reinforce the actions I use to clear stoppages. I always administratively load my gun with the slide in battery so I train to overcome the resistance of magazine spring that I’ll have to do when I seat the magazine after clearing a doublefeed or if I inadvertently touch release the slide lock while performing a Combat Reload. I’m doing everything I can to ingrain the movements I need to do to help me be successful if I ever have to perform these actions while I’m being attacked. I can successfully perform everything I need to do, quickly and reliably, without manually releasing the slide lock. The only time I touch the slide lock is to lock the slide open.
I use the overhand method to operate the slide, which David E describes very well in post #16
I describe the mechanics of Tap, Roll & Rack in post #51.
In post #59, I presented the progressive, nondiagnostic techniques that I use for clearing stoppages.
I don’t have to look at the gun to successfully clear any stoppage. (Indeed, lighting conditions or my eyes not being adapted to the dark or my night vision being ruined by a flashlight beam to the eyes, may prevent me from seeing my gun clearly.) I don’t even try to figure out what’s causing the problem. I just perform a series of actions that will eventually clear the stoppage. If one series of actions fail to get the gun running I immediate progress to the next series of actions. I can perform these actions on the move, and I can perform them with very little mental effort so my mind is free to sense and react to the danger I’m facing.
In short, if the gun doesn’t fire when I press the trigger, I immediately perform Tap, Roll & Rack. This will clear any stoppage except a depleted magazine or a doublefeed.
If Tap, Roll & Rack fail, I immediately progress to performing a Combat Reload because I’m more likely to have shot the gun to slide lock than to have experienced a doublefeed, and I can get the gun running quicker if all that’s needed is a simple Combat Reload.
If, while performing the Combat Reload, I can’t install the fresh magazine because the “depleted” magazine is stuck in the magazine well, I just put the fresh magazine between the ring and pinky fingers of my firing hand, to quickly and smoothly clear my support hand for operating the slide. I lock the slide to the rear to remove recoil spring tension on the jammed cartridge, just like you, to make it easier to remove the stuck magazine. (It can either be discarded or, if it’s your only magazine, put between your ring and pinky fingers.) When I have the magazine removed, I cycle the slide three times to clear the action, and then complete the Combat Reload (Seat, Roll & Rack).
Whenever I seat a magazine, either loading or Combat Reload, I exploit the action as a training opportunity to replicate and reinforce the actions I use to clear stoppages. I always administratively load my gun with the slide in battery so I train to overcome the resistance of magazine spring that I’ll have to do when I seat the magazine after clearing a doublefeed or if I inadvertently touch release the slide lock while performing a Combat Reload. I’m doing everything I can to ingrain the movements I need to do to help me be successful if I ever have to perform these actions while I’m being attacked. I can successfully perform everything I need to do, quickly and reliably, without manually releasing the slide lock. The only time I touch the slide lock is to lock the slide open.
I use the overhand method to operate the slide, which David E describes very well in post #16
I describe the mechanics of Tap, Roll & Rack in post #51.
RobMoore
Member
I don't HAVE to look at the gun to clear it, but why not use the information if it IS available?
Shawn Dodson
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The technique I use doesn't require the information - it's entirely non-diagnostic. I just do it. Attempting to diagnose the problem and then choosing the best remedy reduces quickness.
Tap, Roll & Rack takes about 1 second to perform.
Combat Reload - less than 5 seconds to get the gun running from time of initial stoppage.
Clearing a doublefeed - about 8 seconds to get the gun running from time of initial stoppage.
If Tap, Roll & Rack doesn't get the gun running then my primary concern at the moment is not the gun but in making sure the attacker doesn't hurt me. (This is why I don't try to diagnose a problem if I detect that the slide is out of battery when I work it - the information just slows me down and can cause me to become preoccupied with my gun instead of avoiding danger.) If I'm behind cover then I probably have the opportunity to immediately perform Combat Reload or clear a doublefeed. If I'm not behind cover then I'm exposed and vulnerable and I probably have to move to keep from getting hurt or I have to immediately use alternative force.
RobMoore
Member
The glance isn't a "stop and observe". Tap-Rack begins to happen, but if I see that an out of battery has occurred (whether failure to extract or failure to chamber), I have eliminated the need to finish a procedure that I know probably won't work, and can begin a more useful process.
If a double feed takes you 8 seconds to clear, perhaps a reevaluation of how you're clearing it is in order.
If a double feed takes you 8 seconds to clear, perhaps a reevaluation of how you're clearing it is in order.
Shawn Dodson
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While you stand there exposed and preoccupied with your gun. In the 1 second or so it takes to perform Tap, Roll & Rack I don't have time to glance at the gun, even if lighting conditions permit. My visual focus is on the threat.
I've considered and tried other techniques but I've determined the one I currently use is the best technique to quickly clear any spontaneous, unknown stoppage. 8 seconds to clear a doublefeed is total manipulation time under controlled conditions. I expect total time to take longer in a fight as I'll probably have other tactical considerations to deal with that are more important.
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