Newdow anti God pledge case heard

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I am about to produce a way that will show whether one believes in the "under god" staying in the pledge. Would you still be for the statement if it was "under Allah" or "under Satan"? If not, then you most likely approve of it only because of your religious beliefs.

Why should a child be punished simply because he doesn't believe in a god? In middle school we said the pledge everyday, and a student always said it over the PA to "guide" the rest of the school. When it was my turn, I omitted the words "under god" and received a three day suspension.

It's wrong to force a child to recite a pledge with a reference to a god that he does not believe in.
 
If "under god" had been a part of the pledge originally, or if it had been added for purely benign reasons, I would have no problems whatsoever with it's presence. I think that it is perfectly OK to have references to God on our money, official documents, oaths before courts, etc. Provided they are not deliberate attacks against the religious convictions (or lack therof) of another group.

Since "Under God" was added to the pledge to deliberately contrast 'God-fearin' Americans with the 'godless commies' and not simply as an affirmation or recognition of the religious traditions that made our country great, I cannot support it's presence.

I recognize the potential for this to be the first step down a slippery slope, but that argument has to be ignored....we should make decisions on each issue at hand based solely on that issue, and not consider the possible future consequences of that decision being deliberately missinterpreted. For instance, the argument that legalizing small arms will one day lead to private ownership of WMD's is absurd. People need to be willing to step in the right direction without being afraid that if they do so then one day things may go too far.

Personally, I think the pledge issue is an isolated one. The only reason it is before the SCOTUS is because the God reference, in this case, has a very dubious past.
 
Newdow is a doctor and lawyer, but he is not a member of the Supreme Court Bar. He's been writing and filing his own legal arguments so far, but hasn't had his law license for the required three years to argue before the Supreme Court. The high court made the exception on Monday.

Haven't gotten around to reading the arguments yet (hope to do so later), but I'm wondering if they maybe address this, or provide a reasoning behind granting the exception (which IIRC is usually not done).....my misgivings in this case come not from the core issue itself, but from the particulars surrounding it....the fact that he brought the case on behalf of a child he does not have custody over, a child who does not share the issue he raises, a child who's caregiver is raising in a religious manner, and the fact that he is legally unqualified to argue before the USSC.....I get the feeling a LOT of dubious wrangling has taken place to get this case to where it is now.....
 
cannibal crowley, was that a private school? If so, all bets are off. If it was public, and if the statute of limitations hadn't run out since you'd turned 18, you might be able sue the school (IANAL, but I think lawsuits over actions occurring to you as a minor can be brought either by parents or by you once you turn 18). The Supreme Court case making the pledge voluntary is from 1943.

The issue isn't so much with compelling students to say "under God", because they cannot be compelled even to say the pledge without that phrase; that's settled. The issues center more on whether mere support of the pledge (with "under God") violates the establishment clause. There's the additional consideration that minor students are more impressionable and less able to make voluntary decisions (I think this was inadequately briefed and discussed, but IANAL). The Supreme Court has even held that in public school graduation ceremonies, prayer is not allowed because it's coercive even if it's not mandatory.
 
If I read the history books correctly the foundation of this country is based on freedom of religon. The original settlers came here so they could openly and freely worship God (there is only one that I know of), among other things,paying unfair taxes and so on. If you don't want to recite the pledge of aligence then I call you disloyal to the country. Traitor! For people like me who served in the Military that protected the rights of Americans from coast to coast, I am disgusted by this whole matter.


Tex
 
One Nation Under God

I posted the thread the day after SCOTUS declined to hear Silveira v Lockyer.
SCOTUS stays away from 2nd amendment issues meanwhile high school history textbooks say the 2nd is for millitary only and that courts do not support the right of the private ownership.

The Founding Fathers prayed and fasted and called on Gods intervention all the time,it is clear they did not want the establishment of a "Church of the USA" like the "Church of England" and it is equally clear they were God fearing Christians who had no problem with praying while Congress was in session,would support school prayer and the current pledge.

If a kid doesn't want to say "Under God" nothing bad will happen to them (other then going to hell of course:p ).

I used to allway say "and to the Republicans for which it stands" all the time,and the little atheist in my class would stand but keep his mouth shut,nothing bad ever happened to us.

Newdow is angry at his wife and he took his anger to the Supreme Court.

USSC seems to not care about the Bill of Rights. Backs the mccain/feingold BS,ignoring the 2nd and other stuff,it will probably back Newdow
 
and it is equally clear they were God fearing Christians who had no problem with praying while Congress was in session,would support school prayer and the current pledge.
Some were christians, some were deists (Jefferson), some were openly hostile to religion, any religion, read Paine's Common Sense. He makes most athiests seem tame at times in his disdain for organized religion.

I doubt they would support public school at all, much less mandatory prayer while there.

As for this whole pledge nonsense, read this andthis then look at these.

That's what the pledge is really all about. As for me, I pledge allegiance to the Bill of Rights. All of them.
 
I'm not so sure it's a bad thing they aren't hearing a case about the RKBA.

They've already spit on the first and fourteenth amendments. The constitution is blatantly clear, and they went contrary to it on both counts. What makes you think they would correctly rule on the second?
 
If I read the history books correctly the foundation of this country is based on freedom of religon. The original settlers came here so they could openly and freely worship God (there is only one that I know of), among other things,paying unfair taxes and so on. If you don't want to recite the pledge of aligence then I call you disloyal to the country. Traitor! For people like me who served in the Military that protected the rights of Americans from coast to coast, I am disgusted by this whole matter.

The pledge has nothing to do with early America. Do you advocate forcing kids to recite a 'pledge' everyday?

I used to allway say "and to the Republicans for which it stands" all the time,and the little atheist in my class would stand but keep his mouth shut,nothing bad ever happened to us.

Its good your school wasn't a fascist school like some. Getting rid of the pledge completely would solve this problem but lots of people would protest because they think it means something.(like people that want to ban flag burning)
 
Tex ram, if you put so much faith in the ability of a pledge or ritual to instill virtuous patriotism and morals and ethics in citizens, I question your grasp of history, particularly involving a host of totalitarian regimes, religious or not, that have used pledges or rituals to perpetuate intolerance under the guise of patriotism.

To everyone using "force", I think "coerce" is a better term in light of Barnette (1943). Barnette makes it clear that nobody can be forced to say the Pledge, but in my opinion there's clearly coercion involved where schools direct minors to recite the pledge, regardless of the fact that the minors can opt out (or more accurately, the minors' parents can choose to opt their children out).
 
It doesn't suggest this country owes fealty to that Power. It doesn't suggest that the Power is the source of citizens' morals. It doesn't suggest much of anything, really.

Well, It kind of does...

The Declaration is more about the ideals of our country where the Constitution was about how to apply them.

Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Talking about "God" in some sense as a foundation for the country is marginally acceptable, at least to me. Talking about Christianity as the foundation of this country is not. It was not founded on Christianity. That's what the religion clause of the First Amendment is all about.

"Under God" is perfectly in line with the ideals of the foundation of this country. IMO If they said under Jehovah, Allah, etc. then I would have a problem.
 
Thomas Jefferson is consistent in his position on where and how we got our unalienable Rights.

The Declaration is more about the ideals of our country where the Constitution was about how to apply them. It would be silly to try to look at the First Amendment independent of the ideals of the Declaration. But that's our SCOTUS.

Amendment I - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

establishment - The act of forming something

an establishment - a formation of a religion not the concept of religion

free exercise - should mean you say "under God" if you want to and omit it if you choose


Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain [/b]unalienable Rights[/b], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

VIRGINIA STATUTE FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion]/b], who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as it was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time;
...
Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
And though we well know that this assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act to be irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present, or to narrow its operation, such act shall be an infringement of natural right.
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/42.htm


Having to hear it and having to say it are two totally separate things. There is no right or guaranty that you will not be exposed to religion in the public forum. We are one nation under God historically. I say keep it but let people skip it if their conscience demands.
 
Hey, TaurusCIA, how have you been?
The Declaration is more about the ideals of our country where the Constitution was about how to apply them.
I think you hit the nail square on the head with that one.

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights have the force of law as the founding documents of the government.

The Declaration was something they wrote out of a "respect to the opinions of mankind". It abolished the old government and said why. When it came time to make a new one, they, correctly, said things a little differently.
IMO If they said under Jehovah, Allah, etc. then I would have a problem.
Same thing.
I say keep it but let people skip it if their conscience demands.
How about we skip it, and let you add it if your conscience demands.
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. — THOMAS JEFFERSON (1781)
See you around. I don't think this thread will be around long.:)
 
TaurusCIA
"Under God" is perfectly in line with the ideals of the foundation of this country. IMO If they said under Jehovah, Allah, etc. then I would have a problem.
So you're admitting that it establishes a religion. Furthermore, you're also stating that if the ideals didn't match yours, then you'd want the offending statement removed. All great arguments to have "under god" removed and bring the pledge into its "pre-red scare " state.

tyme
cannibal crowley, was that a private school? If so, all bets are off. If it was public, and if the statute of limitations hadn't run out since you'd turned 18, you might be able sue the school (IANAL, but I think lawsuits over actions occurring to you as a minor can be brought either by parents or by you once you turn 18). The Supreme Court case making the pledge voluntary is from 1943.
My school was public and the statute of limitations has most likely passed. If not, I lack the spare time and money to pursue a lawsuit which would take years to accomplish. Besides, the school changed its policy years ago and that would have been my main objective.

As for the Supreme Court case, many schools ignore this until a lawsuit is brought up. Proof:
Judge Rules Against Pledge of Allegiance
Pledge Patriotism
Student is suspended after refusing to stand and pledge allegiance
Student takes 'under God' out of pledge, feels the heat
School suspends teen for refusing to recite Pledge of Allegiance
Alabama students say school punished them for not reciting pledge
High School Officials Learn Civics Lesson
I Pledge Allegiance…Until I Am No Longer Forced To

Tex Ram
Please take your thumping back under the bridge. Come back when you can provide a decent argument that doesn't resort to fundie logic.
 
Hello Mr. Clark,

I'm still trying to distinguish between religions and belief systems. The courts treat them similarly on one hand and distinctly different on the other.

Oh well...another day, another penny for my thoughts.:D
 
[blockquote](TaurusCIA) free exercise - should mean you say "under God" if you want to and omit it if you choose[/blockquote]
These are 6, 8, 10-year-olds that we're talking about. Under the law, they can't choose to do much of anything. Why must they choose not to recite a clearly Christian Pledge? Why are they presumed to be capable of making such an important, Constitutionally-recognized choice of religion when they can hardly choose anything else?

What business does the Government have passing a federal law respecting an establishment (the phrase "under God" in the Pledge) of religion, even if nobody is coerced into saying it?
 
So you're admitting that it establishes a religion.

Here we go. Let's try it slower now...

an establishment - a formation of a religion not the concept of religion

free exercise - should mean you say "under God" if you want to and omit it if you choose

* Having to hear it and having to say it are two totally separate things.

* We are one nation under God historically and (no revisionist interpritation of the documents or twisting of my words will change it)
 
[blockquote]We are one nation under God historically and (no revisionist interpretation of the documents or twisting of my words will change it)[/blockquote]
And the first amendment asserts that even though that may be true historically speaking, we should not bill ourselves as "under God", implying our nation's continued dependence on a particular religion. I think it's tough (and wrong) to argue, given the background of the 1954 Act adding "under God", that the phrase is not intended to recognize a continued dependence on God for social order, fighting against communism, morals, or whatever other reasons they may have had.
 
clearly Christian Pledge

Look at the historical documents which reference God/Creator not Jehovah or Christ. If Creator/Nature's God works better for you then go for it.

It is clear that the founders assumed and stated that we were under God/Creator when they chose to create the one nation ("United" States). If some did not believe this then why did they sign the document?

I see "under God" as a historical fact supported by the historical documents while others see it as a religious coercion. It can only be coercion if they force you to say it. It is my understanding that students are allowed to refrain from saying the pledge. So just stand/sit there and ignore history.

coercion - The act of compelling by force of authority
 
This is a very *very* low priority for me. I think that the originial pledge should be reinstated and if some folks still want to recite the new pledge, then there isn't anything in the world stopping them.

Imho, "under God" had just kind of been stuck in arbitrarily, because it broke up the nice, symmetrical sing-song rhythm in which folks were used to reciting it:

I pledge allegience . . . . . . to the flag
Of the United States . . . . .of America
And to the republic . . . . . .for which it stands
One nation . . . . . . . . . . . indivisible
With liberty and justice . . . for all
 
tyme,

I think it's tough (and wrong) to argue, given the background of the 1954 Act adding "under God", that the phrase is not intended to recognize a continued dependence on God for social order

I like that position...not sure I agree with it but it makes me go hmmm?:D
 
It is clear that the founders assumed and stated that we were under God/Creator when they chose to create the one nation ("United" States). If some did not believe this then why did they sign the document?

No one signed a document creating a goverment that had the word God in it. We went over this before. Declaration got rid of the old one. Constitution made a new one. When they made the new one, they did it right.

TaurusCIA, this is all about how this is the way you want it, and so that is the way it is going to be. Did it ever occur to you that the shoe could one day be on the other foot? Do you really think that you will always be in the majority? Imagine the world when you aren't the majority, given the precedent for these matters that has been established and that you are trying to keep. Still feel all warm and fuzzy?


I really gotta stop doing this.:D
 
"What business does the Government have passing a federal law respecting an establishment (the phrase "under God" in the Pledge) of religion, even if nobody is coerced into saying it?"



The short argument is that what Jefferson envisioned when he wrote the seminal Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom referred to the state's history of the Church collecting taxes, requiring attendance and marriage, and forbidding the existance of other churches(the Quakers for instance. They used to hang them in Philly and Boston and such. That's how many ended up in the Dismal Swamp area of Virginia and the Albemarle area of NE North Carolina.)

I don't recall from my reading that they spent much, or any, time discussing whether or not there was a God, only whether or not the state should require that everyone pay to support the church and attend.

Patrck Henry, among others, was FOR a state-sponsored church or churches. IOW, you can pick which church to give your money to BUT you HAVE to give. He was only human I suppose and made some mistakes.

John

_________________-

There is a lot of good information on the Colonial Williamsburg site. I mean, c'mon, the General Assembly created the new Parishes among other things.


"In colonial times, obligatory worship in a state church supported by tax monies was the law in Virginia, patterned after the Anglican (or Church of England) establishment in the mother country. But almost from the beginning, the establishment in Virginia differed from that in England. By the late seventeenth century, the power of the church in Virginia had come to rest with Virginia's ruling elite, who typically made up county courts, Anglican vestries, and the colonial government. Office-holding qualifications at all levels required Church of England affiliation. County courts and vestries handled nearly all governmental functions vital to everyday life. Justices exercised an amalgam of administrative, judicial, and ecclesiastical powers. They passed judgment in all manner of cases, including absence from Anglican church services, bastardy and adultery, and other moral offenses as defined in law. Parish vestries not only levied public taxes to pay the clergy and build and repair churches but also doled out support for poor orphans and other needy persons in their parishes. The General Assembly created new parishes and set ministers' salaries. And it spelled out the conditions under which dissenters were allowed to practice their religion.
Although many among the colonial elite supported a church establishment, they opposed centralization of church authority that would take authority to run church affairs out of their hands. Their hands-on management of church affairs taught them (just as service in the strong county court system did) that Virginians were capable, independent leaders. They therefore opposed a movement in the 1770s to secure a resident American bishop.


Dissent and Religious Toleration
By law colonial Virginians were members of the Anglican church, but in spite of church establishment, religious life in Virginia was not cut of whole cloth for long. Immigrants-Scots, Irish, English,Continental--brought religious diversity to the colony. Virginia officials chose to tolerate (in the legal sense) most non-Anglican Protestants. Legislation granted limited religious expression and practice to persons who did not accept the religious doctrines and ritual of the Church of England. The law required dissenters to notify the courts of their dissenting status. Dissenting ministers and their meetinghouses needed licenses from the General Court. Legal toleration provided dissenters a means, however cumbersome, by which they could legally worship outside the Anglican church, but it also disadvantaged dissenters by barring them from public office and by taxing them for support of the Anglican church. Moreover, the privilege of religious toleration could be withdrawn at any time."
 
Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain [/b]unalienable Rights[/b], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Remember, If our "unalienable Rights" did not come from God/Creator then they are not unalienable and are subject to the whim of man the courts.

unalienable - Incapable of being repudiated or transferred to another
 
JohnBT,

Good information...thanks.


The one distinction I would like to make is church is not one and the same as God/Creator as a matter of fact especially in the context of the founding documents. God/Creator is mentioned as the giver of rights, the church is mentioned as a corrupt entity controlled by man.
 
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