News from Switzerland

[Mike J]

Thank You for posting Shung

 

[Pulse]

it is part of a biger speech wich Uli Maurer gave on the first(or second?) day after he started working in/for the Federal Council of Switzerland, he is now leader of the 'VBS' -> Department of Defense, Population and Sport.

here the German version:

Waffentradition ist Ausdruck des freiheitlichen Bürgerstaates

Das zeigt sich besonders deutlich bei den Angriffen auf unsere Waffentradition. Immer wieder wird versucht, den privaten Waffenbesitz einzuschränken. Immer wieder gibt es politische Vorstösse, dem Soldaten seine Ordonanzwaffe wegzunehmen. Sollten solche Bestrebungen Erfolg haben, wird der Schweiz ein ganz wichtiger Teil ihres Staatsgedankens amputiert.

Der Schweiz ist das Oben und Unten anderer Länder fremd: Kein Adelsstand, keine Beamtenelite, kein Berufsoffizierskorps prägte unsere Geschichte, verkörperte den Staat und vertrat oder vertritt ihn obrigkeitlich gegenüber dem Bürger, Soldaten und Steuerzahler. Aus diesem Grund brauchte sich unsere Regierung nie von einer bewaffneten Bürgerschaft zu fürchten, denn Bürgerschaft und Regierung sind eins. Dass dagegen Zwangsstaaten dem Bürger keine Waffen zugestehen, ist nicht verwunderlich; ein Alleinherrscher will nur seine Getreuen Waffen tragen lassen.

Das Modell Schweiz ist anders, es ist demokratischer, es ist freiheitlicher. Es gibt keinen Gegensatz Staat – Bürger. Der freiheitliche Staat, das ist unser gemeinsames Projekt. Der Staat, das sind die Bürger. Wir Bürger, wir sind der Staat. Wir, das Volk, wir sind der Souverän. Und deshalb ist es gar nicht anders möglich, als dass der Souverän auch die Waffen trägt und als Milizarmee letztlich die Rückversicherung dieser Ordnung abgibt.

Der Bürger ist Soldat und der Soldat ist Bürger. Diese Gleichung gehört zum Wesen unseres Milizstaates. Wer jetzt einwendet, der bewaffnete Bürger sei gefährlich, sei ein Risiko, der spricht ihm die Selbstverantwortung ab. Und konsequent weitergedacht führt dieses Misstrauen gegenüber dem Volk in den totalen Verbots- und Verwaltungsstaat.

Wer dem Bürger die Waffe wegnimmt, der zeigt ihm so seine Unmündigkeit an. Der Staat übernimmt die Vormundschaft. Und diese wird sich bald nicht mehr allein auf die Waffenfrage erstrecken. Warum soll jemand, dem nicht einmal die verantwortungsvolle Handhabung seines Sturmgewehrs zugetraut wird, über unseren gemeinsamen Weg in die Zukunft mitentscheiden können? Weshalb soll ein unmündiger Bürger an der Urne über die Geschicke unseres Landes befinden können? Die Entmündigungsspirale stoppt nicht bei der Volksentwaffnung.

here the links to the full speech:
German: http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs/de/home/departement/chef/reden_.html
Français: http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs/fr/home/departement/chef/reden_.html

looks like i have to go Drink a coffe with him when i am in Bern next time.

 

[Shung]

thx Pulse !

 

[tetris]

Good stuff.

Quote:
This is why our government never had to fear armed citizens, because citizens and the government are one and the same.
This is, ostensibly, the same principle that drives the American system of governance.

Unfortunately, with the growth of a so-called "political class" and the increasing stratification of American society, it would seem that this principle has become more an ideal than a reality.

Not exactly. As much as I would love to jump on the Swiss-loving bandwagon, there is a critical difference between the Swiss model and the US model. When he says the Swiss people are the government, he really means it. In other words, their arms are not for protection against tyranny. They don't have a fundamental right to bear arms which cannot be revoked by the government because they do not fear the government: they are the government. In the US model, the second amendment, among other things, is actually the opposite. It serves to protect citizens from government oppression, tyranny and interference in their pre-existing right to keep and bear arms.

Whereas Americans have a right to bear arms without connection to service in a militia or military, the Swiss "right' is for the express purpose of serving in the state militia. You almost couldn't ask for more polar opposites. That said, as Hilter and Stalin have taught us, polar opposites often have many similarities...

 

[HeavenlySword]

Shung, was his speech on your national TV during prime time?

If these powerful words were not publicly exalted, like the US media did to Obama's speeches, then your nation's right to bear arms is already in jeopardy.

No, not just your right, but your people, what makes people from Switzerland Swiss, is in for a drop.

 

[4Freedom]

Switzerland, Europe's last civilized country. I pray that Swiss people can retain their heritage, culture, gun rights and dignity. Don't let the liberal nazis destroy the beauty and glory of your land and people. I think it would be in the best interest of the Swiss to get support from gun owners across the world, especially from USA.

 

[TeamPrecisionIT]

How many of us have contemplated this idea?

With that latest post about the Swiss and their political element, it has got me to thinking. In the event that the USA loses it's fortitude and collapses as a country, how many of us would immigrate to Switzerland?
Don't misunderstand my intentions, I love my country and will fight for it even to the death. What I am addressing is, if the fight has no chance of victory and leaving the country is the only solution, similar to how our forefathers left Europe for this area of the world, who would seek refuge in Switzerland for their belief in freedom that paralleled our own thought not even 100 years ago?

Damian

 

[Seminole]

Ok, sorry it took me so long, but a couple of things came up yesterday. This is an attempt at an idiomatic English translation based on both German and French versions of the speech. A couple of places are still a little rough and anyone is welcome to try to improve it.

It's worth noting that this is just one section of a longer speech and that it fits logically into the larger context for which it was designed.

The Firearms Tradition is The Expression of Our Free-Citizen State

It can be seen especially in the recent attacks on our firearms heritage attempting to infringe on the individual right to own firearms. An increasing number of political moves are designed to deprive the soldier of his issue-weapon. If these efforts should succeed, Switzerland will lose an important part of what makes its distinctive nature.

Switzerland does not have stratified social classes as do other countries. It has no nobility, no elitist bureaucratic caste, no hereditary career-officer corps that is believed to represent the country’s history, embody the State, and to function as its authority over the citizen, the soldier, and the taxpayer. This is the reason our government has never feared armed citizens: citizens and the government are one and the same. It is not surprising that authoritarian States forbid the ownership of firearms to their citizens; the master does not allow his servants to bear arms.

The Swiss model is different. It is democratic, it is free. There is no distinction between the State and the citizen. A free State [a state characterized by liberty] is our common goal. The State is the citizens, and we, the citizens are the State. We the people are sovereign. This is possible only because the sovereign people bear arms, thus constituting a militia that serves as the system’s ultimate guarantee.

The citizen is the soldier and the soldier is the citizen. This equation is the basis of our militia system. Those arguing that the armed citizen is dangerous and might cause harm deny his ability to be responsible. And if this way of thinking is followed to its logical conclusion, the lack of trust in the people will result in a coercive nanny state.

Those who wish to deprive the citizen of his weapon characterize him as irresponsible and in need of the State’s nanny-ing. But this logic will not be confined to the issue of firearms. Why should a person who is not responsible enough to own his own assault rifle be trusted to take part in political decisions that will affect our common future? Why should such a citizen considered so irresponsible be able to vote on issues that will decide the direction of our country? This desire to nanny people will not be limited to gun issues.

Frankly, though the political systems of Switzerland and the U.S. differ in some significant ways, the logic of the last two paragraphs is just as compelling the U.S. as in Switzerland. In some cases at least, the desire to deprive people of firearms is a symptom of a patronizing nanny-state tendency. Unfortunately, in other cases, I think the motivation is a much deeper and more dangerous mistrust of the common people by those who hold or desire to hold political power and who recognize that the possession of firearms by "commoners" is a threat to that power.

 

[Seminole]

One more thing: note that it is the defense of the citizen's right to own military weapons that is being defended here. Though the French word is "fusil," it is unmistakable in the German "Sturmgewehr," which is why I used the English equivalent, "assault rifle."

 

[Shung]

great translation ! thx !!!

just a point.. in Switzerland, issue-weapons can only be kept while you are still serving.. most of the time until 34-40 YO.. after that, if you want to keep it, you have to have it "castrated" to SEMI only..

full auto can be bought and owned for collection purpose (like my Colt M4 for ex), but as a matter of fact, no full auto issued Sig550 is owned privately. The one we have while serving is "ours" but we are not owning it. (until we stop serving, and castrate it to own it)

 

[lanternlad1]

Shung,

Was there a polarizing event that brought liberals together to try to ban guns in Switzerland recently? A mass shooting or something such as caused Britain to lose most of its gun rights? Or has this been a "creeping death" of sorts as the U.S. has seen since the 1960s?

 

[Shung]

our last mass shooting happened in 2001, when a mentally ill person (Friedrich Leibacher) assaulted the Kanton Zug (like on of your states) parlament, killing 14 people, wounding 15 more, before killing himself.

From what I remember he was feeling persecuted and wanted to "punish" the one he considered guilty of all his problems.

He never used military assault rifle (even if he was carrying a civil version of the SiG550, he did not shoot it), but a shotgun, handguns, and a couple of selfmade pipe bombs.

This could be avoided, because the police of this Kanton KNEW he had guns, KNEW he was mentally unstable and dangerous, and still did nothing. But the curent laws allowed them to take his guns away in a preventive action , but still did they nothing.

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/4143950

Why making new laws when you dont apply the one that exist ???


3 other cases in the last 5 years did hurt us pro gun people.

-One Iraqi, freshly Swiss naturalised, used his issued SiG550 to spray and pray a restaurant in which there was someone he did not like.. no casualty, but a couple of wounded.

-another "new" Swiss (from Chile), the day he ended Recruit School (like your boot camp) and was coming home with all his gear (including his assault rifle) camped on a hill, and used his rifle to "snipe" a 16 years old girl that was awaiting for a bus.. I think there was no justification for this, and this guy was declared just crazy, and shoot randomly.

http://www.tsr.ch/tsr/index.html?siteSect=200001&sid=8469541

-A militia Leutnant used his issue SiGP226 to kill his wife (Corinne Rey-Bellet), and if I remember well her brother, for a "love affair" of some kind. This event was really hammered by our media, since Corinne Rey Bellet was a Alpine Ski champion, who won many races of the world cup in her career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinne_Rey-Bellet


That's about it. In most of the cases, people were just "crazy" and never showed it before... so there was no way to prevent that from happening (exept not considering an Iraqi boy, which culture isnt the same as ours, even if he's got a swiss passport for a year..) .. And when it could be prevented to happend, the police was guilty of not doing what the law allowed and suggested them to do.

 

[gvnwst]

That is cool, you may end up with more freedoms than we here in the USA..... At least there are some polititions that are "good"....

 

[VonClausewitz]

There has been one serious killing spree in 2001, but the anti-firearms agenda is was by no means sparked by this. Ever since the early 1980's, a growing number of journalists, junior (socialist/green) legislators, members of the academia and "progressive" parts of the legal community began their agitation against the right of private firearm ownership. Early arguments mostly circled aroung the abstract ideal of a "peaceful civil society" and the desired absence of "symbols of violence". Note that neither the level of crime nor any observable friction within the social body would have given such demands the slightest merit. In recent years, the justifications for more restictive legislation have alternated between the violent crime argument, nonproliferation efforts (!), compliace with EU regulation, suicide prevention and most recently, the protection of women and children from domestic violence. While these are noble goals or noteworthy problems, none of them can be linked to legal firearm ownership with causality or statistic significance.

So more of a creeping death scenario...

Unlike the Bill of Rights, the Swiss Constitution states no explicit right to gun ownership, as the right to ownership of weapons has always been assumed and integral to the constitutional guarantee of private property. Unlike in America, it has never been seriously questioned before. But as Europeans tend to repeat all mistakes from across the pond with a decade latency, it is now our time to take the shaft.

 

[Kelvins13]

Someone earlier pointed out, take away the 2nd Amendment and the 1st will follow. Well, if you worked for the Fed Govt you'd know the 1st is already infringed upon. Now as far as the 2nd, trying carrying a pistol in DC, much less trying to get into a Govt building with one.

 

[lanternlad1]

"Well, if you worked for the Fed Govt you'd know the 1st is already infringed upon."

You don't even need to work for the FedGov to know that to be true. I worked for a NASA contractor for six years. When I quit, I emailed EVERYONE in the company (10,000+) a goodbye note telling them exactly what was wrong with the company. About 10 minutes afterward, I had total strangers showing up to shake my hand and saying "Well, at least SOMEONE had the courage to say it." I found out later that the company enacted a new rule that anyone who puts in their two weeks notice gets their email account suspended. "Friends" I had in the company will no longer talk to me or be seen with me for fear of losing their jobs. Apparently, the hammer on free speech fell HARD after I left.

 

[harrygunner]

We in the U.S. can learn something from the Swiss. Sense of honor and responsibility differences are blaring.

I'll always remember my first visit. In a large city, Bern, I believe, I was in a jewelry store. The clerk brought out a tray of expensive jewelry and placed it on the counter. I asked for something that was not in the tray. The clerk went to the storage area in the back of the store to look for what I was interested in, leaving the tray of jewelry. Contrast that to stores here in the u.S. with wired gates and cages at the entrance.

The other thing that impressed me is the honor system for public transportation. The city bus stations have machines where you buy a ticket. Then, you get on the bus without anyone asking for your ticket, at any time. Don't think that would fly here.

Our government has pushed diminished accountability to us and we have been eating it up. As we the people become more corrupt, we more and more get the government we deserve.

 

[Shung]

Times are changing. we also had newspaper cases which were wide open all day long, and you just put the money inside the box when picking up a copy.. but nothing prevented you from actually pick it up without paying.. but still, it worked.. but nowadays, not so much.. lots of stealing, and we will soon have the one you have in the US..

 

[Onmilo]

Who the hell would invade Swtzerland BUT an authortarian Government!
Same as the USA, looks like they are trying to gain power from the inside out!

 

[Pulse]

we also had newspaper cases which were wide open all day long

it even went further, we have a farm here that used to have a little show room where the farmer put up all sorts of products and it was all self service, walk it, take your stuff, put the money in a box at the entrance.
it was our first kind of 24 hours shop we had, in all the years there was only one case where someone stole stuff (screw up with a imigrant that was allowed to stay, but denied the work licence and no social support, he stole a single loaf of bread and two eggs for his kids and once he had the work licence he worked on the farm for free to pay off the 'debt').
until '98, they cleaned out his entire room, heck they stole the light bulbs!

we realy went a long way since then.. and not allways for the better.

@Seminole
great translation!
realy brings over the 'vibe'

 

[Prince Yamato]

But as Europeans tend to repeat all mistakes from across the pond with a decade latency, it is now our time to take the shaft.

You know, I always felt this way, but never said so out of fear of offending continentals. It's so true, though. We do something stupid here and sign it into law and Europe follows ~10 years later.

 

[Seminole]

Seminole
great translation!
realy brings over the 'vibe'

Thanks, Pulse. And thanks again to Shung for bringing the speech to our attention in the first place. Please consider my translation effort a token of appreciation for the hospitality and graciousness my family and I experienced from your fellow countrymen in Zürich and the Bernese Alps a couple of years ago. We look forward to being able to visit again some day. In the meantime, please continue to stand strong for your rights. Those of us who believe in liberty must stand shoulder to shoulder regardless of our nation of origin, because tyranny knows no boundaries.

 

[VonClausewitz]

I had a friendly and informal conversation with the police officer responsible for weapon permits in my Kanton. He and many of his peers are strongly pro-gun, fully aware of the futility of stricter laws.

But nobody in his right mind expects any beneficial effects anyway, as such expectations are beside the point. As are any speculations about armed resistance. The real conflict is between the ideology of Individualism, complete with rights, duties and responsibilities, and the theory of social constructivism, of "group rights", educational engineering and the absence of individual accountabilty for ones actions. As both camps are roughly divided among party lines, the advocates of disarmament eat a free lunch. Pure Symbolism.

Even with the strong republican tradition in Switzerland, the emergengence of a permanent "managerial class" of federal control freaks is hard to deny. To the credit of my compatiots, most people are sceptical of the state do not buy into its promise of universal bliss.

 

[expvideo]

Why can't liberal see that?

Because the end game for liberals is socialism or even communism, and you can't have that if you can't control the people through fear. You can't have fear or control when the people are capable of fighting.

 

[Shung]

I do not think they all aim to socialism or communism either..

I think, lots of them are just naive and they see a world that will never exist, where everybody is kind and respectfull, and where evil will be abolished..

I stop thinking of such a world when I was 5....