These mass shootings and the right to keep and BEAR arms,

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Onmilo

Onmilo

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While the new agencies are so quick to grab any news report of murders involving the use of firearms as a convoluted gesture to convince the American people that guns are bad and nobody is sane enough to be allowed to possess anything so dangerous, I am noticing a trend here.

Every one of the mass shootings has the killer selecting a location where he knows the victims are not carrying weapons and have no way of defending themselves against the shooters intentions.
All of these murders have involved states that allow the right to carry and none of the locations are known for having armed citizens available.

Mr Wonderful wants to create jobs, it is a nasty world, and America should become accepting of the fact that we are part of it.
Instead of wasting our tax dollars on bailing out rich companies why not direct some of it to training ARMED security personnel that could be assigned to any place that does not allow regular citizens to practice the craft of protecting themselves and their fellow citizens.

Oh wait,,,,armed citizens willing and able to protect themselves and their fellow citizens from the menaces of society are in fact ARMED security guards and bastions of freedom to their fellow citizens, and heck, the government of Mr Wonderful wouldn't even have to spend our tax dollars paying these folks for what they freely choose to do as responsible citizens of this great nation.

Stop the killing! Carry a gun!
 
it would be nice for some public news broadcast to elaborate on the fact that many weapons used in these current crimes (like today for instance) are illegal in those places and are generally acquired illegally... seems like a wonderful argument for mass passage and encouragement of civilian carry... just my .02
 
What does any of this have to do with the president. It seems trans-partisan to me.
 
The last report I heard was that both handguns were listed on the killers lic. as required by NYS law. The report of a high powered rifle has been dropped by the media now.
The local Chief said that responce time was around 2 min from 911 call.
Reminds me of the sig line somebody here has
When seconds count the police are only minutes away
Everyone got to pull out all the cool Tactical Gear and watch the Coroner remove the bodies, This is not a slam on the cops only to point out that the millions spent to upgrade the LE should also be taken into account when limits on personal carry are considered.
 
I'm still trying to figure out why I had to pay a couple hundred bucks out-of-pocket to legally carry a gun concealed...
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Just like taxes, Uncle Sam isn't really interested in your life unless there's money to be had.
 
Indeed, an armed populace becomes the king's army, ready and willing to engage all foes for the common good.

There is no reason to create security guards, extra police, activate the national guard.

Let the trustworthy be the deterrent to the un trustworthy.

Now... for my second cup a coffee. :D
 
"Everyone got to pull out all the cool Tactical Gear and watch the Coroner remove the bodies."
Man, you hit that nail on the head! :rolleyes:
Another thing: Since as a society, we've become quite feminized, no convoluted reasoning can surprise me anymore. Evil Guns will be blamed for this, not the shooter himself.
We have vicious murderers lounging on death row for twenty years, we send billions of taxpayer dollars to feed starving children in Africa, any crack whore or illegal alien can have all the children she wants and bill the taxpayer. When I suggest we shouldn't pay for all this, the feminized ones say, "Hey, it's not the children's fault. Why punish them?"
This mindset is now institutionalized everywhere. Nothing that happens from this point will surprise me anymore. :banghead:
 
I remember reading in the newspaper and various online media publications that experts were speculating crime was probably going to go up with the economy in such bad shape, but they were mostly talking about robberies, burglaries, etc. People stealing because they couldn't afford to buy.
They did mention violent crime rising due to frustrated people just snapping over their financial problems, losing a job and not being able to find another or losing their home but no one predicted these mass murders. What I'm getting at is: I wonder if any of these crimes might have been influenced by the comments regarding enacting another, and permanent AWB. I wonder if some people are figuring they need to do these terrible things now because they're afraid they won't be able to get a gun in the future, or maybe BATFE will start confiscating guns. Has anyone else noticed that it is happening a lot more since we started hearing about another ban and wondered if there's a connection?
This is major scary to me, and I'm not trying to blame Mr. Holder but does anyone have any other ideas to explain it? I know people who do things like this are not sane and logic may not apply at all, but what gives? Hope I'm not off topic here.
 
What does any of this have to do with the president.
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The president had a consistent anti-gun record when he was an Illinois senator. His campaign website promised more gun regulation and a revival of the AWB. He has nominated and appointed people with anti-gun backgrounds, like Rahm Emanual and Eric Holder.

If you don't see a trend here, then don't worry, be happy! ;)
 
Prepare to PUKE!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090404/wl_time/08599188951200

Barack Obama's New World Order
Time.com



Obama Addresses 'Anti-Americanism' Play Video ABC News – Obama Addresses 'Anti-Americanism'

* Obama greeted warmly in France Play Video Video:Obama greeted warmly in France Reuters
* Obama to visit Turkey Play Video Video:Obama to visit Turkey Reuters
* Obama wins British book award Play Video Barack Obama Video:Obama wins British book award BBC

France's President Sarkozy, Denmark's Prime Minister Fogh Rasmussen, German Chancellor Merkel and US President Obama arrive for a working dinn Reuters – France's President Nicolas Sarkozy (L), Denmark's Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen (2nd L), …
By MICHAEL SCHERER / STRASBOURG Michael Scherer / Strasbourg – Sat Apr 4, 1:15 am ET

The United States is still the same country it was a year ago, give or take about 6 million jobs. But its international branding campaign, as led by the new President, Barack Obama, is so different that the rest of the world might be forgiven if it has to do a double take.

Most of the hallmarks of the foreign policy of George W. Bush are gone. The old conservative idea of "American exceptionalism," which placed the U.S. on a plane above the rest of the world as a unique beacon of democracy and financial might, has been rejected. At almost every stop, Obama has made clear that the U.S. is but one actor in a global community. Talk of American economic supremacy has been replaced by a call from Obama for more growth in developing countries. Claims of American military supremacy have been replaced with heavy emphasis on cooperation and diplomatic hard labor. (Read "Obama in Europe: Facing Four Big Challenges.")

The tone was set from Obama's first public remarks in London on Wednesday, at a press conference with Prime Minister Gordon Brown, where the American President said he had come "to listen, not to lecture." At a joint appearance with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Baden-Baden on Friday, a German reporter asked Obama about his "grand designs" for NATO. "I don't come bearing grand designs," Obama said, scrapping the leadership role the U.S. maintained through the Cold War. "I'm here to listen, to share ideas and to jointly, as one of many NATO allies, help shape our vision for the future."

On Thursday night, after the G-20 summit ended, Obama took so many questions from the foreign press, including British, Indian and Chinese reporters, that a group of them applauded when he left the stage. Two American reporters asked Obama for his response to the claim by Brown that the "Washington consensus is over." Obama all but agreed with Brown, noting that the phrase had its roots in a significant set of economic policies that had shown itself to be imperfect. He went on to talk about the benefits of increasing economic competition with the U.S. "That's not a loss for America," he said of the economic rise of other powers. "It's an appreciation that Europe is now rebuilt and a powerhouse. Japan is rebuilt, is a powerhouse. China, India - these are all countries on the move. And that's good."

At a town hall in Strasbourg, France, Obama stood before an audience of mostly French and German youth and admitted that the U.S. should have a greater respect for Europe. "In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world," he said before offering other European critical views of his country. "There have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive."

The contrast is striking. Only four years ago, George W. Bush, in his second Inaugural Address, described what he called America's "considerable" influence, saying, "We will use it confidently in freedom's cause." Bush's vision of American power was combative and aggressive. He said the U.S. would "seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture." He continued, "We go forward with complete confidence in the eventual triumph of freedom."

Obama, by contrast, is looking for collaboration. He is looking to build a collective vision, not to impose an American one. And the response has been notable, from the endless flashbulbs that fired off at his town hall to the cheers of spectators who lined his motorcade routes and gathered outside his events in London. At the end of Obama's Friday press conference, French President Nicolas Sarkozy addressed the issue directly, speaking through an interpreter. "It feels really good to be able to work with a U.S. President who wants to change the world and who understands that the world does not boil down to simply American frontiers and borders," he said. "And that is a hell of a good piece of news for 2009."

AMERICA HAS BAILED EUROPE OUT OF 2 WORLD WARS AND A COLD WAR, AND STILL THEY HOLD US IN CONTEMPT. SCREW THEM!!
 
I don’t believe this is random. Call me paranoid, but it seems like every time the gov. gets ready to push more gun control, we have a mass shooting. In too many of these cases the shooter conveniently kills himself.

"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is Enemy Action."
 
you gotta hate this garbage. when i first heard about ti, Communist News Network was reporting "as many as 14 people had been murdered. when i switched the channel to msnbc, they were reporting 4! anything they can do to sensationalize and mislead the public in the name of ratings. what a bunch of hogwash. freedom of speech should have to stick to the FACTS , not be made up for ratings sake. i hate the anti-gun (which is all of it) media!
 
Every one of the mass shootings has the killer selecting a location where he knows the victims are not carrying weapons and have no way of defending themselves against the shooters intentions.
All of these murders have involved states that allow the right to carry and none of the locations are known for having armed citizens available.
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Wow, so much is wrong here that I am not sure where to start.

The first problem is that the first sentence is a lie. The second error is that the two sentences are not congruent. Third, get over the victim mentality. Fourth, you imply that the shootings occur at location because people are known or believed to be unarmed and this isn't justified.

First, the lie. You stated the absolute that the shooter in every case knew the victims were not carrying guns. For openers, you don't have that knowledge as many of the shooters are dead. Second, some of the shooters prepared for armed confrontation at the shooting locations or did battle with folks the expected to be armed (The Tyler shooting incident, Wisconsin hunting stand mass shooting incident, Chantilly, VA police station shooting, UT sniper shooting).

Second, the incongruity. You stated first that the shooter knew people to be unarmed in every case and then that they were places where people were not known for being armed citizens. Fine, except for police stations, gun shops, gun ranges, hunting lands, gun classes, and NRA or gun organization meetings, just how many places in the United States are known for having armed citizens. As a general rule, the vast majority of the public locations in the US are not known for having armed citizens. Even places where people are often armed, they are not places where people are known to be armed (such as convenience stores).

Third - get over the victim mentality. Just because a person does not have a gun on their person does not mean they are defenseless. Open hand combat, improvised weapons, deception, hiding, and flight are all forms of self defense. I am continually amazed by the number of gun folks who claim to be "sheep dogs" and spout how they are "prepared" for conflict and then learn how they consider being without a gun to be defenseless.

There are lots of incidents where unarmed folks have stopped gunmen, at least a couple of which are mass shootings such as when Kip Kinkel was stopped by his fellow students http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipland_Kinkel Those kids didn't consider themselves defenseless just because they were unarmed. The Jewish professor at the VT shooting didn't consider himself defenseless and died in his efforts of barricading his classroom from the shooter, saving the lives of several students.

If you consider yourself defenseless because you don't have a gun on your person or within easy reach, then you have already made the first administrative step to being a victim.

There is no reason to come up with such fabrications about shooting incidents. You are not the first to make such fabrications and you likely won't be the last, but using lies to promote a valid cause is poor logic, embarrassing, along with being untruthful. No doubt being armed with a gun is a good way to effect a defense against a shooter and certainly armed citizens have made impacts against mass shooters such as Mark Wilson in Tyler and in this Nevada bar shooting
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.politics/2008-05/msg04405.html

Fourth, you imply these shootings occur where people are know or believed to be unarmed. Most school and workplace shootings occur where the shooters had conflicts with other people in the establishments. The location is both the location of the problem and where the majority of the shooter's victims are congregated. In those cases, it is the best place for the shooter to address his issues, not necessarily the place where people aren't armed. Given the number of dead shooters, there is no way to know that they selected their locations because of the unarmed aspect or not. In some cases as noted, the shooter expected armed resistence including the police station shooting, Tyler, and the UT sniper.
 
Second, the incongruity. You stated first that the shooter knew people to be unarmed in every case and then that they were places where people were not known for being armed citizens. Fine, except for police stations, gun shops, gun ranges, hunting lands, gun classes, and NRA or gun organization meetings, just how many places in the United States are known for having armed citizens. As a general rule, the vast majority of the public locations in the US are not known for having armed citizens. Even places where people are often armed, they are not places where people are known to be armed (such as convenience stores).
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In this case for instance, NY is a state where it's near impossible for the average citizen to get a carry permit. So yeah, the shooter could make that assumption. And just like the VA Tech shooter, he made sure the other exit(s) were blocked before starting his rampage.
 
OMG!!! I have been saying forever that it seem a little odd that all of these mass shootings are occuring in such close proximity to the proposal of an AWB ban re-enactment. The last time I brought this up, I was ridiculed and refered to as a "tin-foil hat wearer". How many more mass shootings have to occur before more people wake up and realize that just maybe there is more going on here. WAKE UP!!!
 
Actually, the shooter here blocked just one exit. In neither VT or here were the windows blocked. You people gotta stop thinking inside the corner of the box. Doors aren't the only exits. It isn't just you, but folks in general.

As for the assumption that nobody had a gun because it is NY state and permits are hard to get, allegedly Judge Joseph Cawley started issuing them in county last fall http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=349455&highlight=binghampton+shooting

Besides as I noted, you can make that assumption for just about any place in America except for a limited number of places such as police stations, gun ranges, etc. etc. etc. You could claim that in just about any non-domicile shooting that the shooter had cause to believe people to be unarmed. The attribute is so vague and widespread so as to be meaningless to being relevant to mass shootings.

OMG!!! I have been saying forever that it seem a little odd that all of these mass shootings are occuring in such close proximity to the proposal of an AWB ban re-enactment. The last time I brought this up, I was ridiculed and refered to as a "tin-foil hat wearer".
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Okay, prove it. Show us there are more now because of a proposed AWB than when there wasn't. Otherwise, just wear the tinfoil hate.

Be sure to show how it correlates to the possible AWB versus being correlated with a struggling economy, the Democratic return to power, and the firearm and ammo shortages (iron that such shootings would occur during such a shortage, no?).
 
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OMG!!! I have been saying forever that it seem a little odd that all of these mass shootings are occuring in such close proximity to the proposal of an AWB ban re-enactment.
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With all due respect, what I think you're suggesting is a little nuts. Mass killings have occurred in every society throughout history. We're in a highly stressful time in a society that has largely lost its respect for life. There is no conspiracy.

However, what I would suggest is this: we should all just mourn this loss and hope that their families' broken hearts will someday be healed. This is not the time to try to make political hay out of a tragedy.
 
In this case for instance, NY is a state where it's near impossible for the average citizen to get a carry permit.
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This isn't true at all. In upstate NY, particularly the Binghamton area, it is quite easy to obtain a CCW. In fact in most of upstate, you can obtain an unrestricted (ie, CCW) permit.
 
Yes we should mourn the victims and their families. While I can't prove my suspicions, I could show you legitimate information that would at least cause you to open up to the possibility that perhaps everything is not as random as you think. But alas, this is not the forum to do this, as it would divert attention from our primary goal RKBA. Forgive for deviating from our primary goal, and God Bless the victims and their families.
 
While I can't prove my suspicions, I could show you legitimate information that would at least cause you to open up to the possibility that perhaps everything is not as random as you think. But alas, this is not the forum to do this, as it would divert attention from our primary goal RKBA.
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No, of course the individual shootings are not randon, but they are as a group in terms of reasons for occurring. You can't show that this is connected with the nursing home shooting or the shootings in Alabama except maybe through the notion that the familiarity of the earlier events resulted as being some sort of impetus for later events. However, there isn't any coordinated efforts between the shooters of these events. They don't have some sort of grand goal on which they are trying to jointly influence the bringing back of the AWB. Hell, in the nursing home shooting and here, "assault" weapons weren't even used.

As for not being the right forum for this discussion, of course it is! You are posting in the Social Situations general discussion section of a gun forum. If you can show there is some sort of correlation for the occurrence of these events, then you have valuable knowledge you need to share with us. If you are just pulling something out of your backside, then keep on your tinfoil hat.
 
The underlying and saddening element with all incidents such as this one is that the individuals felt compelled to do these terrible acts. How they carried it out is secondary to what compelled them to do it in the first place...I believe that if someone is properly motivated, they can accomplish anything; whether through tried and true methods like a gun, or something as-yet to be invented or refined. If not guns, then it will be poison or snow-plows, etc. Unfortunately, the US Government's focus is not on the root of these problems, but on the ways in which they are manifested.
 
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