NICS Failure Restocking Fee?

[archigos]

I doubt they have any issues with thugs trying to buy guns, based on location.
Though I do get the impression that the owner of the shop (who generally is at another store of his) is pretty paranoid. Years ago, a student from my high school broke into the shop with 3 other guys, stole 7 guns with the intent to sell and "use for personal vendettas".
They tend to have other signs posted as well that I'm not used to seeing, such as "Do not open boxes of ammo" and "NYS Law: No handgun ammo sold without presentation of pistol permit" (This is -NOT- NYS law, though there are some trying to make it so).

 

[LoneCoon]

I've never paid for a firearm before the check cleared. If someone told me "Hey your NICS check failed, you owe me 50 bucks," I'd tell them to take a flying leap.

 

[natman]

Quote:
can't be sold to someone else

Why? No transfer has taken place. If a delay of NICs approval stops the sale, they are certainly free to sell it to another approved customer.

Citing a 15 percent fee because of a delayed sale? That's really BS

.

Good point, I meant "can't be sold to someone else until the NICS check problem has been resolved." However, in some cases that can take months.

Please reread my initial comment. I explicitly said we don't charge for delays.

Yes, we do require at least a 50% deposit before we process the paperwork. In California "instant check" takes 10 days, so we have to get a deposit first.

Just to put it in perspective we don't get very many turndowns, probably because of the policy. If we didn't have a restocking fee, we'd get lots of guys who would think that nobody remembers the incident with the goat and want to buy a shotgun. According to some here, we should just eat the costs of processing the sale even though the customer knew he would get turned down. Now that's BS.

 

[Ed Ames]

I don't know NY oddities but NICS is done after you state your intention to buy. In some legal systems that's a verbal contract and the seller could legally require you to pay the full amount even though you cannot directly take possession/ownership.

Of course they'd have to take you to court to get it...but they have your info.

You would then have to follow whatever process your jurisdiction imposes when a prohibited person must dispose of a gun... power of attorney designated to sell or the like.

That's what they could do, not what they should do. They should see you wave bye as you leave their store. Places w/ weird policies tend to see their own character in others if you catch my meaning.

 

[ravonaf]

Just to put it in perspective we don't get very many turndowns, probably because of the policy. If we didn't have a restocking fee, we'd get lots of guys who would think that nobody remembers the incident with the goat and want to buy a shotgun. According to some here, we should just eat the costs of processing the sale even though the customer knew he would get turned down. Now that's BS.

Imagine if car salesman did this.

"I'm sorry Mr. Vince, you have been turned down for credit. Now that will be $5000 restocking fee for that vehicle. Will that be check or cash?"

After all. I bet they spend a lot more time processing that vehicle than you did that weapon.

 

[scottgun]

I don't know NY oddities but NICS is done after you state your intention to buy. In some legal systems that's a verbal contract and the seller could legally require you to pay the full amount even though you cannot directly take possession/ownership.

Still no contract. That would be an intent to buy contingent on a successful NICS check. Unless I can successfully meet the terms of a sale, I am under no obligation to complete the sale or a restocking fee.

Same as if I cleared the NICS check, and was paying with a credit card and the credit card was declined, for what ever reason. I would not be held liable for the purchase of the item or any restocking fee, (assuming I haven't already taken possession).

 

[Ed Ames]

You've got to state your contingencies. If you say "I'll buy it." - have every reason to believe you will. Don't like that? Say something wordier.

Most people assume contingencies (ability to pay, etc) that simply don't exist in the agreements they make. If you say "I'll buy it...oh, my bank just went under and I lost $5,000,000" the seller can still demand payment.

If it can be true w. Ability to pay it can certinly be true w. NICS denials.

 

[Hoxviii]

That's awesome. If I ever own a store I'm going to have a "If you read this sign you owe the store $100" sign. Since it's legally binding when they enter the store I'll make a fortune. If you don't agree with the sign. Simply don't read it.

Not quite.

You could put up a sign that says "If you purchase anything here, you owe me an additional $100" and that would carry the force of contract.

Someone offers something for sale with conditions (store policies), you agree to the purchase price and policies, money changes hands.

Again, 20% of $0 is still $0- but the store must have a reason for having it posted.

OP should just go in and ask the premise rather than have us speculating all over the place.

 

[Rellian]

I saw this one bite my younger brother in the butt when he tried to buy his first handgun. He was looking at a Glock, and the store had it in stock (they didn't have to order the item) the guy behind the counter took the info down (rather than having the customer write it out)and payment in full... and didn't bother to ask for a SS#. My brother was denied because there was some guy in Texas with the same name,age,and birth date! who had possession and distribution charges outstanding. The best part was the guy behind the counter said, "Hey man it's not my fault you are not square with the law." (loud enough for everyone within 50' to hear) they kept 20% and then sold the gun to someone else the next day. About all that could be done was to never shop there again.....

 

[dogtown tom]

Rellian I saw this one bite my younger brother in the butt when he tried to buy his first handgun. He was looking at a Glock, and the store had it in stock (they didn't have to order the item) the guy behind the counter took the info down (rather than having the customer write it out)and payment in full... and didn't bother to ask for a SS#. My brother was denied because there was some guy in Texas with the same name,age,and birth date! who had possession and distribution charges outstanding. The best part was the guy behind the counter said, "Hey man it's not my fault you are not square with the law." (loud enough for everyone within 50' to hear) they kept 20% and then sold the gun to someone else the next day. About all that could be done was to never shop there again.....

Doubtful.

1. A FFL cannot just call NICS and write the response on scratch paper and toss it if the potential buyer gets denied. The Form 4473 must be retained by the dealer for twenty years or until he goes out of business. Form 4473's that resulted in a Denied or Cancelled transaction must be retained for five years.

2. When NICS gives a "Delay" or "Denied" response they don't give the dealer a reason why. They will just tell him "this transaction is delayed until (date). Which is three business days after the initial NICS check. If the NICS response is "this transaction is Denied" then the dealer wil provide the buyer with the NICS transaction number and a NICS appeals brochure. The appeals brocure outlines the buyers rights and responsibilities under the Brady law.

 

[Rellian]

I apologize, I compressed some events for the sake of brevity,

When they ran the check it was delayed, then subsequently denied. He was not given a reason. Hence the "It's not my fault you're not square..." statement (and while I don't begrudge the clerk the statement, he really didn't have to broadcast it). It was only after a month of appeals, calls and correspondence with BCI and other agencies that he was given the reason I stated in earlier posts, and had his info been complete he would have been ok'd. Now while it is possible he was making up the part about the mixup and lack of SS#, if he was telling me the truth (and he's always been honest with me before) I felt it introduced a bit of irony into the clerk's statement, as the customer info probably would have been complete had he let the customer fill out that part of the 4473(maybe that's just me). In any case all of this fell out months after the sale should have happened.
But my point was that IMO the clerk botched up the sale and the store still kept the 20%.

 

[natman]

Quote:
Just to put it in perspective we don't get very many turndowns, probably because of the policy. If we didn't have a restocking fee, we'd get lots of guys who would think that nobody remembers the incident with the goat and want to buy a shotgun. According to some here, we should just eat the costs of processing the sale even though the customer knew he would get turned down. Now that's BS.

Imagine if car salesman did this.

"I'm sorry Mr. Vince, you have been turned down for credit. Now that will be $5000 restocking fee for that vehicle. Will that be check or cash?"

After all. I bet they spend a lot more time processing that vehicle than you did that weapon.

Well, yes, if you increase the price by a couple of orders of magnitude without changing the percentage, the penalty does change from reasonable to ridiculous.

It doesn't change the principle. Instead of stretching analogies past their breaking point, why not just explain why you think penalizing convicted felons who lie on their 4473 / NICS applications is unfair?

The only alternative is to pass the costs on to everyone in higher prices. Would that be better?

 

[ravonaf]

It doesn't change the principle. Instead of stretching analogies past their breaking point, why not just explain why you think penalizing convicted felons who lie on their 4473 / NICS applications is unfair?

The only alternative is to pass the costs on to everyone in higher prices. Would that be better?

All other retail outlets do that. What makes a gun business any different? If a salesperson spends half an hour helping someone pick out a $1000 dress and then that persons credit card gets denied. How is that any different? They don't charge a restocking fee for that. When you process that paperwork you are taking a risk the customer won't pass.

Most gun sellers don't do this. How are they able to stay in business? I guess if your prices are low enough you could get away with it. But if not there is no way I would shop at your store.

 

[AirForceShooter]

This is why you pay with plastic.
If I saw that sign I'd walk. And I have never failed the check

AFS

 

[natman]

The only alternative is to pass the costs on to everyone in higher prices. Would that be better?

All other retail outlets do that. What makes a gun business any different? If a salesperson spends half an hour helping someone pick out a $1000 dress and then that persons credit card gets denied. How is that any different? They don't charge a restocking fee for that. When you process that paperwork you are taking a risk the customer won't pass.

Most gun sellers don't do this. How are they able to stay in business? I guess if your prices are low enough you could get away with it. But if not there is no way I would shop at your store.

This is why you pay with plastic.
If I saw that sign I'd walk. And I have never failed the check

So you guys find it offensive that the costs of a denied check are charged to the person actually responsible and are arguing that it would be "fairer" for the cost to be borne by the innocent.

Sorry but that's not how I see it. I don't find the concept of personal responsibility for one's own actions offensive.

 

[wyocarp]

Why would it be illegal? They are charging people for their time. I don't know of anyone that likes to work at their place of employment for free.

Most people should know before or at least by the time that they fill out the 4473 that they will get approved or denied. They should pay a fee for wasting the store's time. It isn't like shooting craps and hoping for the dice to come up sevens. If you have been a felon in the past, you are still felon. If you answered no to a question that should have been a yes, then you should pay the fee. If you aren't a citizen, then get the heck out of here.

 

[rscalzo]

Most people should know before or at least by the time that they fill out the 4473 that they will get approved or denied

Most people would know if someone with the same first or last name and birthday exact or close as someone across the country committed a felony? That in your opinion is reason enough for a dealer to demand a payment that could easily amount into the hundreds of dollars for his time? Does this same dealer charges a "window shopping fee" for any customer who comes in to look a firearm but not purchase? Those types of dealers are the ones fueling the internet sales. Fortunately I patronize local dealers who know what customer service is all about.

 

[ravonaf]

So you guys find it offensive that the costs of a denied check are charged to the person actually responsible and are arguing that it would be "fairer" for the cost to be borne by the innocent.

I wouldn't say it offended me. You also talk as if someone is guilty of something for failing a NICS check. And yes, I do think it's fair that the process of doing business is passed on to all customers. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?

 

[natman]

I wouldn't say it offended me. You also talk as if someone is guilty of something for failing a NICS check. And yes, I do think it's fair that the process of doing business is passed on to all customers. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?

I took your "there's no way I'd shop at your store" comment to indicate that you had indeed taken offense. Perhaps I misunderstood it.

The object of the penalty is not just to pass on the cost of denials to the appropriate party, but to act as a deterrent to keep the cost of doing business down. What we're trying to prevent is guys who know that they have a checkered past from taking a flyer to see if they pass. I feel certain that if we didn't have a penalty we'd get a LOT more of those. It's not part of what we consider the normal cost of doing business and we'd very much like to avoid it whenever possible.

I do want to stress that if a customer gets in a legitimate bind with NICS that's not their fault, we bend over backwards to do whatever we can to get it resolved. We've held guns in limbo for months while mistaken denials get straightened out.

 

[scottgun]

Isn't it illegal for a felon to attempt to purchase a firearm?

Does the NICS check come back flagged 'felon' if that is the case?

Or does the check simply come back as denied?

 

[ravonaf]

I took your "there's no way I'd shop at your store" comment to indicate that you had indeed taken offense. Perhaps I misunderstood it.

I would not shop with you because I would be gambling the restocking fee on the government getting the NICS check right. Now, if you truly passed on those restocking fee savings to the customer with lower prices I would take the risk.

Would it not be a better idea to lower your prices by 20 dollars then charge a $20 NICS check fee? That would keep the Felons away and show your regular customer's that you truly are passing the savings on to them. And the $20 is not nearly as harsh as the restocking fee on a $1000 gun.

 

[reflex]

at my gunshop here in Fl the owner said he would keep the special order weapon until the appeal of denial was complete. I'm not sure if it is a regulation or not but since I waited 3 months for the gun to arrive I was glad he did it. My denial was reversed and the sale was allowed.

 

[natman]

Isn't it illegal for a felon to attempt to purchase a firearm?

Does the NICS check come back flagged 'felon' if that is the case?

Or does the check simply come back as denied?

I believe that while it may be technically illiegal for a felon to attempt to purchase a firearm, and certainly illegal to lie about it on the 4473 / NICS form, in practical terms the NICS search just comes back as denied and that's the end to it. I've never heard of a NICS attempt prosecution at any rate.

The amount of information given the dealer is limited. If the denial is based on ID, such as expired driver's license, there's a note to that effect. Most denials for cause just say denied. There is contact information so the customer can get more detail and start an appeal if desired.

 

[archigos]

I'd think that if you want to deter attempted purchases by felons, you'd be better off posting a sign saying "NICS denials will be reported to law enforcement along with CCTV in-store and parking lot evidence."

 

[DHJenkins]

Just because there's a sign doesn't mean they enforce it.

There's plenty of people with "Protected by such and such security company" stickers on their houses even though they don't have an alarm system.