NICS Wait Time

[heeler]

mgkdrgn,I have no idea if the dealer gave him a Nics tranaction number or what.
I am getting all of my info basically third hand.
Guy tells his wife and she relays to me the conversation.
Neither know jack about firearms and I have no idea under the sun if either has ever even bought a gun in years past from a licensed dealer.
They are just an older couple that wanted one and he has an upcoming CHL class sometime next week.
However if he was denied the pistol his chance of passing the Texas and FBI background check for his CHL license seems pretty slim at best.
My natural curiosity over all of this is high.

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLCDR
Of course three business days does not include holidays because a holiday is not a business day, it is a holiday. Good grief.

So, Dealer calls NICS on Tuesday, February 26. NICS responds with a "delay" and an MDI date of 3/5 - which is 4 full business days between the delay response and the MDI date. Without hearing anything else from NICS, the dealer transfers the firearm on Saturday, February 2nd, which is 3 full business days between the delay response and transfer, according to the ATF chart which I posted. What Federal regulation or law has been violated by the dealer? Answer....NONE. I challenge you to post a citation to the Federal law that would be violated.

Did you understand any of the citations or NICS material you clipped and pasted above?

If you did you would understand why I keep repeating that holidays are not counted during the "three business day" delay.

And guess what? Saturday, March 2nd is a state holiday...........Texas Independence Day.

I don't know why you keep at it, but since my first post in this thread I've written what FBI NICS has given Texas dealers as the MDI date on transactions delayed this past Wednesday........thats Tuesday March 5th. If you don't agree, fine, argue with the FBI.

First you argue that the dealer doesn't give any firearm information to the dealer....he does.
Second you argue that the FBI doesn't give a date to the dealer....they do.
Third, you argue that the Texas dealer can complete the transfer on Saturday.....he can't.

Good grief, indeed.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Did you understand any of the citations or NICS material you clipped and pasted above?

If you did you would understand why I keep repeating that holidays are not counted during the "three business day" delay.

And guess what? Saturday, March 2nd is a state holiday...........Texas Independence Day.

Christmas is a holiday too. And do you know what Christmas and Texas Independence Day have in common? Neither of them fall within 3 business days of Tuesday, February 26. You seem incapable of understanding a calendar. Tuesday, NICS is call and delay is received. Wednesday is the first full business day. Thursday is the second full business day. Friday is the third full business day. The law says the FFL can transfer the gun after three full business days have elapsed. It does not matter if the 4th business day is a holiday or not, according to the law. Only holidays and weekends that fall WITHIN the three full business matter, not holidays or weekends that occur on the 4th business day, or the 364th business day.

If you are going to count a holiday that occurs on the 4th business day, then you might as well wait for Christmas too, because both holidays fall outside the 3 full business days required by law. Just because the 4th day falls on a holiday (not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd full day), show us the law that is violated if the FFL transfers the gun on the 4th day. NICS makes mistakes. Lots of them. Show us the law that is violated.

AND...at least according to the following website, Texas Independence Day has got nothing to do with it anyway:
http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/texas-independence-day

Public life

Texas Independence Day is a partial staffing day in Texas however state offices are scheduled to be open on partial staffing holidays. They will not be closed on another day when designated holidays fall on a Saturday or Sunday. Those travelling to places where festivals and large-scale celebrations are held may need to check with the relevant authorities about traffic and parking conditions in these areas.

and from this Texas government website:
https://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/holidays.html

State offices are scheduled to be open on partial staffing holidays and optional holidays. Please call ahead to confirm hours.

Offices will not be closed on another day when designated holidays fall on a Saturday or Sunday.

March

2 - Texas Independence Day (partial staffing holiday)
Joint Resolution 7, 14th Legislature, 1874. Section 1.

 

[JFtheGR8]

I went to Scheels in Eau Claire, WI on Saturday, Feb 9th to purchase 2 DPMS rifles. I received a "Delay" response at that time. I have been in contact with Scheels and there is still no word either way. This is my first time purchasing a firearm through an FFL.

Go pick up your guns then. Unless WI laws are different you weren't denied and much more than 3 business days have elapsed. Get a refund if they don't let you have them.


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLCDR
Christmas is a holiday too. And do you know what Christmas and Texas Independence Day have in common? Neither of them fall within 3 business days of Tuesday, February 26. You seem incapable of understanding a calendar.

Incapable?
No sir, I fully understand a calendar and I fully understand what the FBI considers as three business days.

But in this case the FBI disagrees with you.

What you have failed to grasp is that the FBI gave the dealer in the OP (and me) an MDI date of Tuesday March 5th..........if you dont believe that too bad. If you think the dealer can hand over the gun on Saturday......well good for you, but you aren't a dealer who has his FFL at risk now are you?

While you are magnificent at cutting and pasting stuff you find on the internet, you have never faced an ATF compliance inspection, spoken to the FBI NICS or been a licensed gun dealer. You have never stood in the shoes of a licensed dealer and called in a NICS check, reviewed a 4473, logged in a gun into a bound book.......you have NEVER done ANYTHING that a gun dealer does. What's so special about all that? Only that ATF considers each and every mistake or ommission a willfull......and criminal violation.

So you can sit on your high horse and tell the OP that the dealer was wrong or ridicule my ability to read a calendar but understand that I have no choice but to abide by the MDI date the FBI gives. Whether you think it should be a different day is immaterial.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So you can sit on your high horse and tell the OP that the dealer was wrong or ridicule my ability to read a calendar but understand that I have no choice but to abide by the MDI date the FBI gives. Whether you think it should be a different day is immaterial.

There is no statute that requires you to abide by the MDI date the FBI gives you. All I am doing is asking you to provide STATUTORY basis behind what you say. I know what the FBI and NICS are telling you. All I am asking for is statutory evidence that they are correct. So far, in this thread, I have not seen any statutory evidence that they are correct. You can take their side all you want to, I am just asking for the law to back it up.

Nothing in the statement that you receive from NICS regarding a delay requires you to wait until the date they give you either:
"--NTN-- will be delayed while the NICS continues its research of potentially prohibiting
information on this open transaction and will advise you if it reaches a final determination
of proceed or denied. If you do not receive a response from us, the Brady
Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on ___day/date ___."

Notice how they do not claim that it is illegal for you to transfer the firearm after three full business days has elapsed, even if that 3 full business days is before the date they give you?

If you do not receive a response from us, the Brady
Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on ___day/date ___.

Well, nothing in the Brady law would prohibit you from transferring the gun before the date they give you, if three full business days has elapsed, and nothing in the Brady law would prohibit you from transferring it after that date. Notice the NICS statement uses the word "ON" ____day/date_____. So, if you are going to say that you can't transfer the gun before that date because that is the date they give you, then you are also going to have to say that it would be equally unacceptable for you to transfer the gun after that date as well, because NICS says you can only transfer the gun ON that date, and not after.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So, let's ask this..... Joe Smith working in the gun shop calls NICS on Tuesday, February 26th for a customer and gets a delayed response. Joe Smith records the NTN on line 21b of the 4473 and checks "delayed" on line 21c. That is all that is required. NICS provides an MDI date of Tuesday, March 5, but Joe Smith never writes that down because he is not required to. Joe Smith tells the customer, you got delayed, but come back after 3 business days and we can transfer the gun to you.

Customer looks at his calender and checks off 3 full business days, Wednesday (not a holiday), Thursday (not a holiday), and Friday (not a holiday) and goes into the store on Saturday to get his gun. Joe Smith doesn't work on Saturdays, John Doe is working. John Doe finds the form 4473, sees the delayed response recorded on the form on Tuesday, looks at his calendar and checks off Wed (not a holiday), Thur (not a holiday), and Fri (not a holiday) as the 3 full business days and transfers the gun to the customer and checks "No resolution was provided within 3 business days" in block 21d of the 4473.

1. What law was broken?
2. Exactly what can the ATF do about it?

My proposed answers are 1. No law is broken, and 2. ATF can't do a dang thing about it because all laws and regulations were complied with fully.

 

[dogtown tom]

My goodness, you should be teaching law to the ATF and FBI

Why the hell don't you get your FFL and show us how much smarter you are than the FBI and us stupid gun dealers?

I'm sure that will end well.


When the dealer signs the 4473 he is certifying that his answers are "true, correct and complete" (so forgetting to record the MDI in your example? Felony bub)
AND that he has read and understands the Notices, Instructions and Definitions in the 4473..........and those instructions state on page 6:

NICS Responses: ......If NICS provides a delayed response. NICS will also provide a Missing Disposition Information (MDI) date that calculates the 3 business days and reflects when the firearm(s) can be transferred under Federal law......

So the ATF and FBI disagree with you.

 

[NavyLCDR]

When the dealer signs the 4473 he is certifying that his answers are "true, correct and complete" (so forgetting to record the MDI in your example? Felony bub)

Felony for not recording the MDI on the form 4473?!? REALLY? I really used to think you were more intelligent than that, dogtown tom. Again, the challenge still stands, which you cannot rise to - SHOW US THE STATUTE!

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Page 2 of the form 4473, block 21c:

Delayed
[The firearm(s) may be transferred on
(Missing Disposition
Information date provided by NICS) if State law
permits (optional)]

Do you understand the meaning of OPTIONAL?

Page 6, instructions, of the form 4473:

At the time that NICS is contacted, the licensee must record in question 21.a-c: the date of contact, the NICS (or State) transaction number, and the initial response provided by NICS or the State. The licensee may record the Missing Disposition Information (MDI) date in 21.c. that NICS provides for delayed transactions (States do not provide this number).

Do you understand the difference between MUST and MAY?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/nics-firearms-licensee-manual

Page 15 of the NICS Section Federal Firearms Licensee Users Manual:

If the transaction remains delayed after the Transfer Process, the NICS Examiner provides the Missing Disposition Instruction (MDI) and the date on which the Brady Act does not prohibit the transfer. This date may be recorded on the line below the "Delayed" check box on question 21c of the ATF form 4473; however, this is not a requirement.

and on Page 21 of the same manual:

A. Procedures for Completing ATF Form 4473
If the FFL receives a delayed response, he or she must record the NTN on line 21b, check "Delayed" on line 21c and may enter the MDI date on the line below the "Delayed" checkbox on line 21c of the ATF Form 4473. Entering the MDI date is optional.

Do you understand what this is not a requirement, may, and entering the MDI date is optional mean?

So, really? A Federal felony to not record the MDI which is not required and optional? Puhleeze. We have enough problems with restrictions that are contained in real statutes and regulations, it just bugs me when people attempt to pass off their own restrictions, opinions and business policies as required by law, when they aren't.

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLCDR

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
When the dealer signs the 4473 he is certifying that his answers are "true, correct and complete" (so forgetting to record the MDI in your example? Felony bub

)

Felony for not recording the MDI on the form 4473?!? REALLY? I really used to think you were more intelligent than that, dogtown tom.

ATF considers any ommission, error or mistake......even a transposed digit as a willfull act. Have enough in the eyes of your IOI and you can be charged with a violation of Federal law......so yeah smart guy, it IS A FELONY CHARGE.

Again, the challenge still stands, which you cannot rise to - SHOW US THE STATUTE!

I'm not the one charged with researching anything. Your beef is with the FBI, ask THEM to do your legal research.

Delayed
[The firearm(s) may be transferred on
(Missing Disposition
Information date provided by NICS) if State law
permits (optional)]

Do you understand the meaning of OPTIONAL?

Apparently you do not understand what that means.....take the time to read the instructions on page 6 and you'll see that "Optional" means the state may impose an additional waiting period.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Thank you for more personal opinion. Thank goodness you are not an ATF inspector. And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLCDR Thank you for more personal opinion. Thank goodness you are not an ATF inspector. And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Not my personal opinion. My info is straight from the FBI NICS.

 

[LevelHead]

Currently the wait time in NJ is 3-4 days. Has been for the last month or so. Before that it was longer.

All NICS must be faxed currently in NJ. If you're buying a handgun, then you probably waited 90 days for your handgun permit. And that's usually after waiting 90 days to get your firearms ID card. Oh, and only one handgun a month. After all those checks, then you STILL need to go through the three day "instant" check.

 

[bill3424]

It's pretty instant around my neck of the woods. NFA....well that's a different story.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Currently the wait time in NJ is 3-4 days. Has been for the last month or so. Before that it was longer.

All NICS must be faxed currently in NJ. If you're buying a handgun, then you probably waited 90 days for your handgun permit. And that's usually after waiting 90 days to get your firearms ID card. Oh, and only one handgun a month. After all those checks, then you STILL need to go through the three day "instant" check.

I believe NJ State police have a single resource (person) doing the checks. Before this latest run, used to be a phone call.

(Makes me laugh when I hear about loopholes and instituting sensible background checks - the uneducated have no idea how long it takes to get a gun in NJ.)

 

[leroy]

Bought a new pistol Wednesday in Jonesboro, AR and the background check took about ten minutes. My cousin who was with me tried an hour later and received a DELAY. He was told to come back March 5th. He was also told by the dealer that if he heard from the FBI before then, he would give him a call.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Heard today in a gun store that the State Police told my town and others to slow down issuing the permits because they couldn't keep up with NICS checks.

Guess that's a way around the 3 days if true.

Brother bought a .22 rifle today - was told 6 days for Nics check.

 

[cbmax]

So let me add to what the current state of affairs is like in NJ. After waiting almost 3 months for my wifes's initial FID card and pistol permit, now we have to wait for NICS again. Didn't we just do all of the background checks? Now we have to wait another 3 to 5 days for another NICS check to take place? I just bought a rifle and I am in the same boat. I don't understand why NJ won't add additional staff to make transfers go a little quicker. Actually, I do understand but it's unbelievable that we let this happen! After all of the hoops we have to jump through in NJ to buy a pistol and or rifle the added NICS wait is a major slap in the face!

CB

 

[Donut Destroyer]

"ATF considers any ommission, error or mistake......even a transposed digit as a willfull act. Have enough in the eyes of your IOI and you can be charged with a violation of Federal law......so yeah smart guy, it IS A FELONY CHARGE."

Dogtown....Just checking here....The law dealing with information included on a 4473 by a dealer is 18USC922(m). There is a "KNOWING" requirement as an element of proof of a violation. That means that ATF would have to prove that any false or inaccurate information entered was done so "KNOWINGLY". It isn't just an automatic assumption, it has to be proven. The penalty for violating 18USC922(m) is found in 18 USC 924(a)(3)(A) and (B) and is "imprisonment for not more than one year". "Not more than one year" makes it a misdemeanor.

 

[Donut Destroyer]

I'm new at this....how do you include selected quotes from a post in a reply? I see how to include the entire quote, but what about just selected sentences?

 

[Kybill]

Never saw it take longer than 10-15 minutes and that was around December. Bought a Ruger 10/22 for my kid to shoot this morning, maybe 3 minutes to get through and approve.

 

[dogtown tom]

Donut Destroyer

Dogtown....Just checking here....The law dealing with information included on a 4473 by a dealer is 18USC922(m). There is a "KNOWING" requirement as an element of proof of a violation. That means that ATF would have to prove that any false or inaccurate information entered was done so "KNOWINGLY". It isn't just an automatic assumption, it has to be proven. The penalty for violating 18USC922(m) is found in 18 USC 924(a)(3)(A) and (B) and is "imprisonment for not more than one year". "Not more than one year" makes it a misdemeanor.

No, the courts have backed up the ATF view that an error or ommission is a WILLFUL act.....WILLFULL pretty much covers the "knowing" part.

 

[Donut Destroyer]

OK, but I doubt many get prosecuted unless there is a serious track record of blatant violations and that will probably be preceded by status conferences, warning letters and license revocation. Anything to generate more paperwork. And it's still a misdemeanor and not worth the effort without other charges.

Knowing and willing are also different issues. You can willingly violate a law without knowing it is a violation. Conversely you can knowingly violate a law but un-willingly. I know it's nitpicking but certainly something to consider when trying to convince a jury.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Mr Rogers: Beings I have a concealed weapons licence my dealer does not have to even call NICS. Neat huh?

Beings that the concealed weapons license in your state is recognized as standing in place of a background check, that is neat. So I envy you.

ATF does not recognize all state carry permit laws as standing in place of a background check, so I cannot use my state handgun carry permit. I think it has something to do with Tennessee requiring a state background check for gun sales IN ADDITION TO federal background check.

 

[Highland Ranger]

So let me add to what the current state of affairs is like in NJ. After waiting almost 3 months for my wifes's initial FID card and pistol permit, now we have to wait for NICS again. Didn't we just do all of the background checks? Now we have to wait another 3 to 5 days for another NICS check to take place? I just bought a rifle and I am in the same boat. I don't understand why NJ won't add additional staff to make transfers go a little quicker. Actually, I do understand but it's unbelievable that we let this happen! After all of the hoops we have to jump through in NJ to buy a pistol and or rifle the added NICS wait is a major slap in the face!

CB

The only thing about all this that makes me smile is, in spite of all the attempts to take the guns away, people are voting with their dollars. The fact that gun stores across the country are wiped out of just about everything except maybe shotguns has to give the circus in Washington pause.