Night Sights or Flashlight?

[Werewolf]

The lum-tec thread and a post there got me to thinking about night sigts vs flashlights and what situations either is appropriate.

For me night sights is the only way to go. If I'm at home and a break in occurs at night then night sights it is. I know my home way better than the burglar and I can move around it in the dark just fine. With a flash light on a rail or me tactically carrying it I give up any advantage of surprise and give the burglar a place to shoot at if he's armed. Night Sights win. If the intrusion is noted while the intruder is outside same logic applies with the added modifier why would you want to go outside and confront the potential intruder?

If I am not at home and find myself in an SD situation at night the odds that I'll be carrying a flashlight are low. In addition any SD situation I can imagine myself being in at night would require a quick presentation by myself and there would be no time to pull a flashlight. Furthermore even if time like that was available would one really be in an SD situation if one needed a flashlight or used one. Wouldn't that be more like search and destroy than self defense?
Again Nights for the win.

IMO flashlights are for search and destroy and primarily for use by those like cops and swat teams who wear body armor and accept the risk of advertising their presence and presenting a target to their armed opponents.

What do y'all think?

 

[DHJenkins]

Both.

Night sights prior to engagement, then flashlight after the first shot ruins my night vision.

 

[rcmodel]

Both.

You have to have a flashlight to be able to I.D. a threat in the dark.

Night sights make it possible to see the front sight after the threat has been identified.

rc

 

[hso]

Shooting at a target that hasn't been identified doesn't sound like anything anyone trains anyone to do so I would think having a flashlight to ID your target in the dark would be an essential piece of kit.

 

[benEzra]

IMO flashlights are for search and destroy and primarily for use by those like cops and swat teams who wear body armor and accept the risk of advertising their presence and presenting a target to their armed opponents.

Flashlights are for NOT destroying when it's not warranted, i.e. when that looming intruder in your kitchen who doesn't respond when challenged is actually your teenage son sneaking a beer out of the fridge and trying not to get caught, or when that "guy with a shotgun" turns out to be a guy with a boom box in his hands (that one was a LEO shooting, and the victim was lucky to have survived), or when that prowler sneaking in a window is your teenager sneaking back in at 2am after sneaking out. There are plenty of anecdotes about people (LEO and otherwise) without lights who fired shots in defensive situations in low light, and found out after the fact that it wasn't a defensive situation at all.

If the lighting is poor enough that a light would be helpful, then it may be too dark to shoot without a light without violating Rule Four. You have to know what you're shooting at.

 

[COMPNOR]

Sounds to be then like you need to concentrate on some different training. Night Sights are great for low light/no light situations where you can't see your sights. They don't help you ID the target though.

 

[DHJenkins]

I should point out that it really does depend on just how dark your home is at night and who lives there.

Mine is lit up enough at night that I can make an effective ID without the use of a flashlight - yours may not be. Also, the only people that should be in my home are myself, my wife and the cat; anyone else is an intruder.

Again, it all goes back to situational awareness and customizing your tools, mindset and response to your particular circumstances - there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to HD/SD.

 

[mljdeckard]

Every gun I carry has night sights. They let you know whare you are aiming in the dark. What they CAN'T do is help you identify your target.

A flashlight can never be a bad thing to have. You may or may not use it, but if you needed one you would need it VERY BADLY.

You might think about getting a pouch that carries one spare mag and a flashlight instead of two mags. The odds are much higher that you will need the flashlight than that you will need the third mag.

 

[bratch]

Both.

Night sights prior to engagement, then flashlight after the first shot ruins my night vision.

I have shot several hundred rounds in low light training and have never had this problem. You need a flashlight, night sights are a nice addition but not necessary. I use both.

 

[Werewolf]

Hadn't thought about the ID'ng target thing in the home. Excellent points.

In my defense if someone is moving about in the dark in my home that shouldn't be there my dogs would be going nuts. That's enough ID for me. In addition if someone is in my home after dark that shouldn't be there then they entered by force and illegally. In OK the law considers them a lethal threat and the use of lethal force is justified and an affirmative defense in any prosecution that results (in OK it is extremely rare for a homeowner to be brought to trial for shooting an intruder).

Under those conditions I still believe that moving around shining a flashlight is an invitation to getting one's self ventilated by an armed intruder.

 

[DHJenkins]

Under those conditions I still believe that moving around shining a flashlight is an invitation to getting one's self ventilated by an armed intruder.

If it's too dark to make an ID in your home, what's going to happen after the first shot kills your night vision and effectively blinds you? Like others have said, just because you have the flashlight doesn't mean you have to use it - but I can almost guarantee after the first shot, you will need it if follow-up shots are required (which you will only be able to determine if you can see).

 

[PandaBearBG]

For LEO's flashlights are used for properly identifiying targets, which is a MUST for law enforcement for liabilty and legal reasons. For the rest of us in HD/SD situations its not necessarily "required," a powerful flashlight will disorient and blind an intruder ruining his night vision of course it will ruin yours too. This gives you the advantage having him temp blinded and sitting down the barrel of your gun. Of course if there is more than one intruder that leave you with a a big arrow pointed right at your body. With just night sites you got suprise and concealment on your side, however in the event it is a household member getting some cookies and milk in the wee hours of the morning, well the results could be bad to say the least. I guess it's depends how you have trained or practice HD/SD situations, your "style" I guess, and if you live alone or have sleep walking house members.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Under those conditions I still believe that moving around shining a flashlight is an invitation to getting one's self ventilated by an armed intruder.

I take it that you aren't aware that most flashlights are equiped with switches to allow you to turn them on only when needed. Contrary to most TV shows, using a flashlight doesn't involved running around with it turned on all the time.

 

[mrokern]

For LEO's flashlights are used for properly identifiying targets, which is a MUST for law enforcement for liabilty and legal reasons.

Ok, let's make a slight correction...

"For LEO's flashlights are used for properly identifiying targets, which is a MUST for law enforcement and HD/SD for liabilty and legal reasons."

You're gonna get sued and prosecuted if you mess it up in a HD/SD scenario too.

I have flashlights stored with my firearms. Open the gunbox nearest my bed, you'll find a cocked and locked 1911, spare mag, and flashlight.

Go to my secondary gunbox in my safe area, you'll find more guns (with night sights), and even brighter flashlights.

You may not have to use the tool, but if you need it and don't have it, you're screwed.

 

[Corey]

If I have to choose, give me the flashlight. I always have a flashlight of some sort with arms reach, even when I am not carrying. Also, once you turn on the light you can see your sights so if you have a light you don't have to have night sights. I prefer to have both to give me more options, but if I have to choose on or the other than give me the flashlight.

And as for this: "a powerful flashlight will disorient and blind an intruder ruining his night vision of course it will ruin yours too."

All I can say is don't point the light at yourself. Get some training on how to use a light properly.

 

[mustang_steve]

Use a very high powered light with a focused beam to screw up the attacker's night sight or to induce sunspots that will reduce their ability to attack efficiently....that means momentary use...not illuminating an area...that just gives away your position.

Night sights are a must...None are availible for what I have, so I'll just go with the glo-paint route.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Flashlight.

It should also be remembered that the bright point of light can hide your true location and actions. If there is a risk that the light might draw fire...don't hold it next to your head, or close to your body - make that fact work to your advantage.

 

[hso]

Under those conditions I still believe that moving around shining a flashlight is an invitation to getting one's self ventilated by an armed intruder.

How much low/no light training have you had and how much force on force low/no light training have you had? Just one course will disabuse you of this common mistaken belief.

As has been pointed out, you don't walk around with the flashlight lit up like a landing beacon for bullets. Proper use of a flashlight in low/no light conditions gives you an advantage over the BG, not a disadvantage.

 

[Trebor]

Obviously you've never trained on how to use a flashlight or even how to shoot in low light.

A flashlight is a must for identifying your target. There are mistaken shootings in homes across the country every year and I'm sure you think that could never happen to you, but if it did, it would be the tragedy of your life. The more people you live with in your home, the greater the odds that someone might be "up and about" when you think everyone is asleep. If you have teenagers who might have snuck out and are now sneaking back in, the odds go up again.

Night sights help you see your sights, but they do nothing for target ID.

A flashlight used in conjuction with night sights helps you properly ID the target and make your shots. Take a training class in low light shooting and you'll understand.

 

[Bix]

I agree strongly with the above recommendations for training.

Don't know where you are in OK, but USSA has a pretty impressive cadre of instructors (I've never trained there):

http://www.usshootingacademy.com/default.aspx

The 212 handgun class appears to contain a low light component. That sort of experience would likely help provide conclusive answers to the questions you pose.

That's enough ID for me.

It might even get you to reconsider using deadly force on a target that you've not positively identified as an immediate threat.

 

[rcmodel]

If you have teenagers who might have snuck out and are now sneaking back in, the odds go up again.

If you have a neighbor like mine, who sometimes comes home drunk at 3:00 AM and tries to get in the wrong house, it goes up even further!

The guy is completely harmless & more fun then a barrel of monkeys, so I sure would hate to shoot him in the dark by mistake!

rc

 

[conw]

I like my Armalaser and a flashlight. I live by myself with a dog in my room, alarm, and locked doors, so mis-IDing a target is unlikely. But it's there if I need it.

 

[Zach S]

First, I don't like night sights. The mepros I had put on my 4" Kimber are so bright they tend to wash out the target. YMMV.

I had a night sight installed on the front of a 1911A1 I had a while back, and the front night sight/plain black rear worked really well for me. Keeps my focus where it should be without two other dots distracting me. I've done the same to my beater G19. The ~$35 night sight isn't very bright, but bright enough for me to find my front sight.

Anything I'd grab for HD (G19, AR, 590) has a light hanging on it. If I cant ID it as a threat, I cant shoot it, legally or morally.

If I had to choose one, it would be a flashlight/weaponlight.

 

[lebowski]

It's not a one or the other question, they are natural compliments.

 

[coloradokevin]

I didn't read all of the other posts, but here's my take:

Flashlight is more important, at least from my perspective as a cop. I absolutely need to know what I'm about to shoot before I discharge my weapon, particularly when I'm at work. Outside of work I still consider target identification to be a mandatory issue. Sure, I know the inside of my house better than anyone else, but I still don't know what is standing in the shadows down-range of me!

Night sights are quite nice, and I have them on my off-duty CCW weapon. Honestly though, I never got around to throwing a set on my duty weapon, and haven't found that I've ever needed them. I work in an urban environment, with a decent amount of ambient light in most places, even on dark nights. Moreover, when I'm in a really dark situation (building clearance, etc) I'm typically using a flashlight to clear, and I've found that the weaponlight on my duty weapon emits enough peripheral/reflected light that I can still see the sights well enough to shoot very effectively.

Night sights don't hurt, and I really do like them. But, a flashlight is the more important of the two choices in my mind! I simply don't think there are too many home defense situations where you should sacrifice target identification for the sake of an ambush!