Night Vision

[Trent]

Anyone had any experience with night vision, night shooting, and rifles?

The stuff is so expensive, and there's nowhere around I can find to, you know, get a hands-on demo

So I'll be "buying blind."

I thought about getting a dedicated night vision rifle scope.. but that is limiting on a number of levels. My first thought was, the rifle would only be useful at night. Second, ONLY that rifle would have night vision capability. I'd like something I could use with a rifle, 22 cal handgun, or crossbow interchangeably (I'm considerate of my neighbors when killing pests at night).

Which has me thinking more of a monocular set up. But will those work with a shouldered rifle or crossbow? Or will I only get use out of a monocular with pistols?

It's all very confusing to someone with no experience. I don't want to spend this much money on a fancy gadget only to find I can't use it the way I thought I could.

My budget will permit Gen 3+, if it matters.

 

[MachIVshooter]

There are people who know more about it than I do, but I'll offer what I can.

The big difference between the generations is the ability to amplify with less ambient light. I have looked through Gen 3 and 4 and didn't find them remarkably clearer than my Gen 1+. What makes the difference is that 3 and 4 really don't need an illuminator. The illuminator is not a big deal for hunting, but if you're fighting an enemy that also has NV, your IR illuminator will be a beacon to him.

I only use mine for hunting, so the ATN mk390 paladin works great, and I'm not having to totally baby the thing because it was only $600.

My next NVRS was going to be a Pulsar N550 digisight, which are basically gen II+, but are fine in daylight because they're digital. However, I'm going a different route. For just a bit more, you can get into a lower end FLIR thermal monocular (starting at $2k). I'll use the monocular for spotting (no animal's camoflauge or motionlessness hides heat signature), then switch to the NVRS for shooting once I know exactly where to look.

 

[TNBilly]

MachIV gave ya a pretty good gist of the conclusion I've come to looking around the last month or so. the N550 is where I "seem" to be looking but I'm thinking of holding off till next month and see what new products hit the market. Pulsar and perhaps others might have new offerings. I know Pulsar is supposed to be coming out with their version of a clip-on and a smaller version of the N550.....it is large bTW. Other than that if I were to get a tube NV I was looking at the Armasight clip-ons.. would require saving a while longer. The only thing that holds me back a little from the Armasights is the reviews I've read, like on Optics Planet. They're all positive, which is fine but, they all are supposed to be from around the country but read much alike and that of someone where English wasn't their first language. If I were to hear independent opinions I might reconsider there.

 

[Nasty]

I was considering getting a NV compatible optic to act as a spotter in case NV enabled bears ever came after me. It might help me spot them, eh?

The NV capability in an optic is almost free...

 

[GI_Jared]

I can give some insight into how the military does it. Soldiers where night vision goggles on their head and then they have an infrared laser on their weapon. The laser can only be seen with night vision goggles on and is sighted in just like the other laser sights on the market. This works very well and you can engage targets out to 300 meters without any issues.

 

[45_auto]

The stuff is so expensive, and there's nowhere around I can find to, you know, get a hands-on demo

Go down to your local Army recruiter and tell him you want to be an 11B. All the hands-on you'll ever want.

 

[FSJeeper]

I too am in the market for NV. Anyone have any experience with the monoculars that attach in front of a traditional scope for night vision capability? This arrangement would be perfect for my use if they are any good. Seems that I can get into this setup for arround $1,800 but have not found any real world reviews yet.

 

[kBob]

I found there was noticable difference between the old AN/PVS2 a first generation device and the second generation AN/PVS4 when the US Army was switching over in the late seventies and early 80's. I found the AN/PVS 14 series in current use head and shoulders above the Second generation stuff.

Most of the time I think SOME night vision beats NO night vision.

Keep in mind the first generation at least do wear out and begin to loose ability to give you a full picture over time.

WHen we had moon and clear skies I found a good quality pair of binoculars were very useful in Germany at night. In the Early 1970's the AN/PVS 2 was pretty much it for a weapons sight, but it often got left behind because it was so darned heavy and bulky. Contrary to what a famous ans well known sniper/author said about the PVS2 on an M-16 A1 one could use the iron sights as the scope was on an off set mount attached through the side of the carrying handle. It was normal practice to attach that mount, attach the scope to the mount and co align the scope and rifle sights using the distant aiming point techneque in day light to have a usable zero at night. The mlater AN/PVS 4 attached to the rifle directly to the carrying handle slot and blocked the use of the rifle sights and I think that may have confused the author of an other wise excellent book. I trained my troops to co align the PVS4 with a bore sight by breaking down the rifle and removing the bcg and looking through the barrel at a distant aiming point while blocking the upper in position on sand bags and adjusting the PVS 4 to the same distant aiming point. Both these techneques gave opslop bring the mop accuracy on knelling man targets to 100 meters without further fuss

Where I thinking about a NVD or NVS seriously today I would look at the ability to swap the sight from rifle to rifle, the type and availability of batteries, and what no one seems to want to talk about resolution in lines per inch. I would then consider how much control of focus is needed when the device is in use.....for instance with the old PVS2 one had to constantly adjust focus to view at various ranges with any clarity, but the PVS14 seems to not have this issue at all bassed on my limited experience.

So what features you want are a toss up, is a super clear scope that only focus in a small range band as useful as a less clear one with much greater areas of focus?

I don't think anyone can tell you what is best as darned few folks have experience with more than one or two systems. The darned things are just too darned expensive for most folks to play around with a host of them. This is one you will have to do your own research on.

Hope I helped a little. oh and darn (had to get that in one more darned time)

-kBob

 

[jmorris]

My budget will permit Gen 3+, if it matters.

Save up some more and get thermal.


If you don't want to PO the neighbors add a suppressor or two to your collection.

 

[OhioChief]

I have two. Both ATN. 1 is a Gen +1 that you can pick up for around $600. Works fine, has the standard green tint and gets you in the game on the cheap (for night vision), but it's nothing compared to the later models. I also have a gen 3+ WPS. That's simply F'ing amazing. Runs about $3,600 if I remember correctly. Honestly you can spend more, but I can't imagine how anything else would be much better. It's like watching a black & white movie. I love it and if I ever buy another one, it'd be just like this one. You can see everything!!!

 

[Robert]

Taliv is the man to talk to about night vision and shooting.

 

[adelbridge]

I have an ATN Spartan and Pulsar N550. The ATN I use with a streamlight IR illuminator as well as built in IR and I can see hogs out past 150 yards and have made 80 yard shots. The ATN is much bigger than Pulsar but I like the reticle better. Pulsar you can record out to monocular. Forget mounting either to a pistol, they are heavier than the gun and the eye relief isnt practical. You can mount anything to a crossbow but you better have good shooting sticks to support the added weight. It takes all of about 5 minutes to rezero optic with a 20-30 yard crossbow shot, just record your clicks to remount to rifle.

 

[Ian]

I had a Gen 3 PVS-14 monocular for a while. My though was that I wanted to have freedom of movement with it, so I prefered a head mount over fixing it to the rifle. You can't use a head-mounted NVG to look through rifle sights, though, so I got an IR laser to use. I mounted it on a generic AK via an Ultimak rail, and had very good results. At 200 yards I was hitting a silhouette very consistently.

However, I ended up realizing that I almost never actually used the NVG. It was more of a novelty than anything else, and one losing value as technology improved. So I sold it to help fund my first machine gun, which also doesn't come out to the range very much but is a lot better at holding its value (and which I can fix if it ever breaks).

 

[Gordon]

I have a anpvs-2 on my m-14 since early 80s
In the early 90s I got a anpvs-4 for $1500 and put it on an early CAR15

 

[68wj]

My ideal would be a pvs14 on a head mount for walking around and an IR illuminator/laser for aiming and/or a qd mount where it can be removed from the head and put on the gun behind a NV compatible red dot. I have dealt with these guys and they are really knowledgable yet down to earth. Tell them what you want to do and they can show you all the options. http://identmarking.com/index.php/night-vision-page

 

[taliv]

here's a couple threads i started a while back
www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=680626
www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=664418


plenty of pics there of the gear and a little discussion. i'll try to answer specific questions when i get back from breakfast

 

[taliv]

ok so briefly, i have owned gen3 nv scopes and the picture is nice, but they are a PITA to use and generally worthless for the reasons you listed. i got rid of them.

for carbines, i highly recommend helmet mounted goggles or a monocular depending on your budget, plus a laser mounted to the rifle/pistol. the laser does not have to be IR. a regular red laser on a pistol works just fine.

you won't shoulder the rifle completely. don't fire from the hip, but put it a little lower on your shoulder and keep your head up off the stock and looking over the rifle.

for long range precision work, clip ons are the only way to go. however, they are expensive and heavy and have a number of operational challenges. they are much, much more effective when you have a team.

either way, you will want an illuminator, even with gen3 stuff.

do not buy less than gen3 unless you are just playing with it. i don't have much experience with the digital stuff so it may be ok. it is cheap.

there are a million little things to consider when buying NV. you either need to understand what most of the items on the "data sheet" mean, or you need someone you trust to hand select a unit for you.

understand that no two NV tubes are identical. even same models rolling off the assembly line will all have different numbers on the data sheet and different performance.

there are some good deals on used stuff out there. lot of pvs7 police tradeins, etc.

send me a pm and i'll point you to some reputable vendors

 

[Trent]

Taliv,

Thanks for the help and information! Will PM you.

 

[MachIVshooter]

do not buy less than gen3 unless you are just playing with it

What do you mean by "playing"?

Most of our hog hunting group is just working class, those who have money are frugal. Pretty much everyone is running ATN or Yukon Gen 1+, and they work just dandy for hogs at reasonable (<150 yards) distance.

Different story if you're in combat and need to identify uniforms or faces, and need to be undetectable. But the hogs don't pay any attention to the faint glow of the illuminator, and I have no trouble discerning between light and dark animals, ones with mottled coloration, tusks, animal size, and can see any decent sized twigs that might interfere with my shot.

I appreciate the sentiment of "buy once, cry once", but not all of us can afford or justify $3k+ for a NVRS. Even decent Gen 1+ from ATN, Yukon or Luna is still not exactly chump change at $500-$800.

 

[adelbridge]

the laser does not have to be IR. a regular red laser on a pistol works just fine.

I sighted in my ATN Spartan with a laser bore sighter but wonder if repeated use could damage the unit.

 

[jkhunter]

I have a Nyx14 monocular from Armasight and it works well for me. What I like about it is that it is a universal device similar to PVS14 just cost a little less. I have a head set for it, and sometimes use it as NVG. With a weapon mount and my Aimpoint it works as a wepon sight.

 

[cat9x]

I second what taliv said. I have an ATN 6900 Crusader Gen2+ on an AR15 and it's got its limitations. It's a dedicated NV scope, fixed 5x. When you have a full moon w/out overcast it really shines, good for about 125 yards. The IR is a must with it. Many disadvantages to a dedicated NV scope but I will say you can still run a NV scope during the day. Lens caps usually have a very small pin hole in the center. This lets enough light in for the scope to operate but not enough to damage it.

 

[taliv]

machIV, i'm not trying to say it can't be done, or that nobody makes it work. i'm just saying that being able to see in bad conditions is worth the $. you can get gen3 military refurb stuff for under $2k. there are much cheaper ways to kill hogs (of course, they're not nearly as entertaining)

 

[TNBilly]

taliv do you have any experience with the Pulsar line? I know it's made in Russia but haven't found a direct connection with ATN

 

[dmancornell]

Trent, I recall you posting in a thread regarding corrective glasses.

Have you done any research on using NV googles/monocles while wearing glasses?