Nightstand Gun - Over Penetration, Muzzle Flash and Noise

[1894]

I currently have a 6 inch GP100 as my nightstand gun, loaded w/ .38 specials. I live in an apartment, so full house loads are kinda out of the question. Also, I have other options for carry. Yes, I have a 12 gauge as well - but also have to turn corners to get to my son's room - which is one of the reasons why the handgun seems more reasonable for me in this situation. My questions / concerns are soley related to over / under penetration in both bad guys and walls, and muzzle flash / noise. Lately, I was in a conversation with a friend who's *fairly* knowledgeable - meaning about as much as I am, and we were discussing the merits of his choice of a full size .45 for the same type of scenario. Truth be told, neither of us knows which will be worse in the middle of the night. I'm looking for the right compromise.

Please do not turn this into a caliber war. However, if you have real world statistics (NOT knock down power or one shot stops) about energy / penetration / db, this would be helpful. Also, I'm not interested in capacity / reliability wars either. If I go to .45 for this scenario, it'll most likely be a gov't 1911 that I will end up buying for other reasons anyway.

I welcome your thoughts. 1894

 

[LowerLeft]

Maybe you want to look at the Glaser bullets, supposed to help with the over penetration issue. Maybe even look at like the Judge revolver where you can have the .45 and .410 together - .410 for the first shot and 45, one of the lighter weights for the follow ups. I'm just throwing that out there as a suggestion, I've been thinking about this also. But I think the .38 you have should do nicely.
Check You Tube for shooting videos and get a better idea that way.

 

[451 Detonics]

Sounds like you need a plan for home defense.

If you live in anything but the ground floor then the most likely entry point is going to be your front door. Now bad guys hate two things, light and noise. It is very easy and inexpensive to provide them with both of these...without violating your lease even.

A simple contact switch can be mounted on the door with a large bell alarm.
Remote switches can be used to turn on bright lights in every room of your apartment except your bedroom.

These two simple thing are inexpensive and will normally send the BGs running. If they don't they will cause enough confusion for you to get to your kids and take up a defensive position. By my bed are a couple things...

Electronic ears, I can hear better with them than without and will protect my hearing.
Two baby monitors, one at the front of the house one at the rear...really helps knowing where the BGs are.
Sweatpants and a duty belt with reloads and a flashlight.

As far as ammo the Glaser is a possible solution. I am not fond of it my self as it sometimes fails to penetrate enough. I prefer to rely on hitting my target.

 

[hardworker]

38 will be easier on the ears than a 45, but a 357 will have the final word as far as noise goes. I wouldn't use it either, it'd be too disorienting.

 

[ms6852]

You may also want to place motion sensors that will turn the lights on, ensuring no surprise for the burgler or armed robber, or serial murderer. Either way personal defense rounds are iffy at best. They are loaded lighter which is supposed to stop through and through penetration and allowing it to disperse all its energy upon impact. The problem with that is that sometimes they may not penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs. But what ever you decided, regardless of caliber you have chosen a clear head and bullet placement always makes the difference.

 

[1894]

You're right, I need a plan. With no training, I've been unable to come up with anything resembling such. My son is almost eight and knows if anything goes bump in the night, he's to hide in his bath tub until I come for him. Lights are usually on in his bathroom, under the stove, and in the closet in my bathroom. I have found this is enough to silhouette anyone from where I'm coming.

We're on the first floor. Here's the floor plan:

http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x446/1894c/floorplan.jpg

I place zero trust in frangible rounds. I'm not an air marshal. The fact that I may have to point a firearm in the direction of my son's room is another reason why I do not want to consider a shotgun for this role. Every night I say to myself as I lay down to sleep, "He's in the top bunk," or bottom - whichever it may be.

At the range, I am comfortable stating that I can hit COM at max range within my apt. double action as fast as I can pull the trigger. But once I consider that my son may be down range - even if off by several feet - Let's just say I've considered a machete for the nightstand instead of a gun.

I would love for a hundred acres and a couple choke points. However, moving is financially not viable presently.

 

[ATBackPackin]

If that was my place I would build a false wall in his closet, illustrated on the floor plan in red, that he could run to. For less than a hundred dollars you could make something out of lumber and drywall with some wires or pipes coming out to look functional. It could even be lined with something to give added protection. When you leave it could be taken down easily and fixed with a little spackle. I put it in that specific corner because of where you would coming out of your bedroom and most likely have to fire and it's behind the tub. Just a suggestion.

 

[B yond]

Check out the box o' truth to compare the two calibers regarding penetration through walls.

My personal HD plan involves a lighted .45ACP in a quick-access safe on my headboard and a couple of 12 gauge shotguns in a locker in my closet. The deal is I access the .45 and toss my wife the keys to the locker. Then I clear our hallway (I know, i know, don't clear the house) so she can get to the kids rooms while I cover the stairs. She collects the kids and deposits them in our bedroom on the side of our heavy wooden bed farthest from the door, then retrieves one of the shotguns and a phone and takes up a defensive position. I return to the bedroom, lock the door, retrieve the other shotgun, and take up a defensive position to cover the door while she calls for help.

Secure the kids and call for help. I use 230 Grain 45 ACP and 2 3/4" #4 buck. My logic with the ammo is to dump a bunch of energy into the first thing they hit, which should either be a bad guy or a wall. Either way, the projectiles will have lost a lot of energy by the time they pass through and hit anything else.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I think .38's are fine. Also, have you considered the Hornady Critical Defense ammo, or some other ammo type that is supposed to be "low flash"? I would think that would help with disorientation problems after having to shoot. I like the ideas of having some electronic ear protection. Enhance hearing and protect ears, sounds like a good idea if you can get them on in a hurry.

 

[Fred Fuller]

You're right, I need a plan.

Sounds as if you have one already but you aren't completely happy with it. My question is, what happens next in your plan after you go to your son's room?

You don't mention anyone else in the house other than you and your son. Is there anyone else? If so, what's their role in the event of a break-in?

Do you have a fire evacuation plan also? What about other family emergency plans to meet other possible problems?

What have you done to 'harden' your home? Do you have a security system? Motion activated exterior lighting? A dog? Good locks on doors and windows, and a system to make sure they are all employed before bedtime? And so on...

The NRA offers a class called Basics of Personal Protection In The Home through their nationwide network of instructors. The lecture portion if the class is available on DVD if you don't have a class near you, and there's a printed textbook. Here's the linkage:

Class Locator - http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx
DVD - http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=ES 26840
Text - http://www.nrastore.com/nra/Product.aspx?productid=PB+01781

Class info -

Name : NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course
Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude essential to the safe and efficient use of a handgun for protection of self and family, and to provide information on the law-abiding individual’s right to self-defense.
More Details: This is an eight-hour course. Students should expect to shoot approximately 100 rounds of ammunition. Students will learn basic defensive shooting skills, strategies for home safety and responding to a violent confrontation, firearms and the law, how to choose a handgun for self-defense, and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection In The Home handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, and course completion certificate.(Lesson Plan, revised 05/09)

The NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course participants must be law abiding, adults (at least 21 years old), and experienced shooters (shooters able to show mastery of the basic skills of safe gun handling, shooting a group, zeroing the firearm, and cleaning the firearm) to maximize what can be learned from this course. Proof of shooting experience can be one of the following: NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate, NRA FIRST Steps Course Certificate, NRA pistol competitive shooting qualification card, military DD 214 with pistol qualification, or passing the Pre-Course Assessment.

hth,

lpl

 

[sidheshooter]

I think others have covered the need for plan development and training nicely. I'll just add that, for home defense, I don't see any burning need to run out and get another gun: that 6-inch GP100 will do just fine, and so will the .38 loads, so long as they are ones generally accepted as good self defense fodder (ie: 158 gr. LSWCHP +P or Gold Dot 135 gr +P).

With the lower pressure rounds like the .38 in a longer barrel, your ears will probably live through a few rounds–the same likely can't be said of a target if the placement is good. Flash with good SD loads will be about as mild out of that GP as can reasonably be expected with anything even remotely effective. The 5-inch Gov't model is also very good–especially flash-wise; maybe ideal–but louder, IMO. As I type, I have a 4-inch GP100 that is actually chambered in .38 (GPNY, made originally for NYPD) within easy reach, with the above mentioned 158 gr. "FBI" load stocking the cylinder. Of all the things that I have to worry about these days, gear is not one of them. Get the .45 if you want it (I have one of those too), but realize that need is not part of the equation.

Hone your mind and stay safe.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've had the "pleasure" of actually unleashing a full octane .357 without ear protection in a small room. My one and only ND, and while I would never repeat that experience without life or death necessity, it was interesting. The sound itself was so overwhelming that I didn't notice it. That may seem bizarre, but it seemed to have simply registered "off scale" on my brain's noise meter. It did a number on my ears, for sure and I likely lost a bit of high range hearing with that screwup. But it had no disorientating effect in and of itself.

As far as flash goes, you ought not to be blasting into darkness particularly if there are kids in your house and other around you. Get a light and know how to use it so you don't have your own screwup. Put it this way, whether or not anyone outside law enforcement or the military has been killed because they have used a light is questionable. But it's absolutely 100% certain that folks shoot neighbors, kids, and family members by mistake because they don't know their target. You HAVE to know your target as a citizen using deadly force. Don't go around planning on shooting at shapes and shadows with your night vision. Nor should you worry about losing your night vision from a tactical light's flash.

As far as penetration, if you want to limit it the Remington .38 LSWCHP's are about the best ones I know of that will still work well as defensive rounds. They're soft lead and have a very easily-expanded big hollow point. While they're certainly powerful enough to go through sheet rock that's true of any worthwhile round. They won't blaze the same trail a heavy .357 slug will.

I don't know the .45 ACP as well, but I'm sure there are good rounds for it as well. It would also work well, and no need to get fancy with flash suppressors or whatnot.

 

[duns]

I have the impression that all the major calibers (9mm up) in hollow point penetrate to about the same depth -- because they are designed to meet the same criteria.

I had an ND in 32ACP recently and I can say there was not much noise, no noticeable muzzle flash, and hardly any penetration in my kitchen ceramic tile floor!

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The other aspects seem to be covered well. A good resource for understanding overpenetration concerns is www.brassfetcher.com

I'd also add that I am not a fan of Glasers and that website shows why very well. First, they often tend to penetrate too little if they do perform as advertised. Second, they don't always perform as advertised - so if you are counting on them to stop in sheet rock, you might be in for an unpleasant surprise.

 

[LowerLeft]

Sorry, I have never actually had experience with the Glasers either, just brought that up as a possibility. I've only seen them on youtube videos in action so I can't say from personal experience.
I brought up the frangilble's because I know very well the apartment areas and their size. I lived on the second floor in a two bedroom before and there happened to be a knife fight break out on the side of our building one night - quite a few years back. When the police arrived I know 3 shots were fired, 2 in one of the persons fighting and one went into my downstairs neighbors wall - penetrated from an angle and stopped in her fridge. I don't know what the PD was shooting with at the time but let's say it did leave a big impression. Maybe the shot was a fluke, who knows...

In another incident, and now we're going back twenty years - I had just graduated high school, getting ready to get on with my life and some idiot guy and his buddy thought they would be really cool and come shoot at my house because of some girl.
Anyway, they shot 2 shots into the front of my mothers house with either a 9mm or .380 and both shots went into the front wood of the house but never penetrated farther then that, they're still in the wall somewhere - but the older houses were also built much different than todays mesh and spray insulation with stucco on the outside and drywall or plasterboard on the other.

But you all have great information to follow up on, Thanks for that.
1894 - hope you get it figured out buddy.

 

[BBQLS1]

Your floor plan does suck. The only real option you have is to move to where you won't shoot in your son's direction. Maybe beef up the doors giving you more time before they actually get in. Practice shooting so you hit what you want.

.38s are fine IMO, I'd rather .45 ACP or 12 gauge, but I've often just used .38s with no real fear that it wouldn't work.

I will say, I think that if it won't penetrate walls, it won't penetrate enough badguy. Good luck.

 

[Water-Man]

I prefer a .45acp loaded with a premium hollowpoint. A light on it is a big plus. If you are going to use your Ruger, I'd load it with .38 Special 158gr. LSWCHP as has been mentioned above.

 

[kingcheese]

if you are going to use a 45, you want the lightest loads you can get, it will still be enough to stop a man, but the more muzzle energy it has the more likely it will overpenetrate, the 38 has a different problem, because it has less frontal surface are on the slug, it is already more prone to pentrate deeper, so youd definately have to go with hollow points or frangibles

hollw points expand no matter what they hit, frangible dissengrate if they hit a good target, i.e. they might go through a 2x4, but not through a person, might go through a wall, but be stopped by the fridge door, so if you choose a frangible it has to hit what you inted for it to hit

either way you go, the thing you should really think about is making your gun intimidating, if you have a stainless gun(because its very noticable) and a laser grip on it, if the robber has any brains, will run at first sight, if you have a gun that is barely noticable at night, the might be less "motivated" to leave on there own

either way, i couldnt say that one is better then the other because i have little personal experience with either, but i do have a friend who has seen personally a 45acp bullet stop ON a 2x4, not in, on it was about 15yards, but thats all i know about that shot

 

[BBQLS1]

hollw points expand no matter what they hit,

No, they don't. Especially at slower speeds, hollow points are less likely to expand. Hollow points are good insurance, but they don't always do what we wish they'd do.

 

[mbt2001]

I currently have a 6 inch GP100 as my nightstand gun, loaded w/ .38 specials.

Muzzle flash from a standard .38 load out of a 6" barrel will be less pronounced. Frankly, use Winchester rounds, as they tend to flash less. I like revolvers for HD, as there is absolutely no confusion of a loaded chamber, FTF issues, etc...

I would put book cases on one or both sides of the wall leading to your sons bedroom, as based on the floor plan provided, as that room is in your field of fire from the master bedroom. Depiste your plans you need to plan for this very probable issue. I would also have a special light mounted that is very bright and the switch is on the inside panel of the master bedroom. If things go strange, you can hit that switch and light up the room to ensure you are not shooting at son and friends sneaking in / out of the house.

You can use a door bar (linked below) to put under the front door. Living in an apartment you can't do much to the door hardware and the doors themselves are usually fairly heavy, so the door bar should give you some added time.

http://www.amazon.com/Master-Lock-2...UX8I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1302888661&sr=8-2

All things being said, you are well armed. I would prefer a shorter barrel, but that will increase muzzle flash and noise. Honestly, if those are concerns, along with penetration, then you really have the perfect gun already, provided you shoot standard .38 158gr type rounds. Just for the record, I shot Harry Potter's 5th book (hardback) with a 2" .38 special using 130 FMJ / FMC winchester bullets and the slug only went about 2/3rd's of the way through, shot from about 3 feet. I do not consider the .38 to be a super penetrator.

No, they don't. Especially at slower speeds, hollow points are less likely to expand. Hollow points are good insurance, but they don't always do what we wish they'd do.

Hornady has critical defense rnds that, supposedly, are guaranteed to open.

 

[Talin342]

I'll admit first that I skimmed the question, but my standard post on a question like this is that Buffalo Bore makes "tactical low-flash" .357 and .38 loads for use in indoor and low-light situations. You might look into those.

 

[NMGonzo]

That is what the .380 is for.