Nitrocellulose laquer and cigaratte paper cartridges.

[AdmiralB]

I don't think the nitro is all that important. I bought a pack of French Light papers a couple weeks ago and rolled up some powder charges...I didn't put the ball in with them because I use a lube pill. So I load the paper charge, then the pill, then the ball (kinda like field artillery, actually).

They worked fine, about 90% of the paper burned totally and the balance went out with the next load.

Lotta trouble, though, best for cold winter days with lots of idle time I suspect.


However, if you're heart's set on using lacquer, you can buy real nitro at luthiery supply houses, or other musical instrument suppliers; here's one: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/1/Spraying_Lacquer.html

$18/quart sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

You can buy very affordable amounts of potassium nitrate at your local garden supply store

Refer to reply #6 ... I got a phone number in Longbeach, CA.

 

[Ginormous]

They worked fine, about 90% of the paper burned totally and the balance went out with the next load.

It's that 90% burn rate I mentioned in my first post that I want to do away with. That and make more resilient paper cartridges. The NC lacquer several things towards that end. It burns like the dickens, makes a great paper adhesive with out adding any non combustible bulk to the mix (unlike Uhu glue sticks), and reinforces the rice paper a bit to firm things up for insertion into the revolver cylinders.

While soaking onion skin paper in KNO3 will help the burn rate of the paper a bit, I'm looking to take this safely to the next step, hence my questions earlier. Safety is a big thing for me, I want to be here with all my parts for as long as possible. Hell, I don't even cast my own own lead balls or conicals at home because the slight possibility heavy metal poisoning or contamination. I order mine from Voodoochile! Which is another picture story in the works. (Notice that smooth segue so i could post some pictures?) Man those things are nice!! Here they are in all their sticky goodness:



Here are the 220's in my 1st Model Dragoon riding on top of 50 lever dropping, Walker acting, grains (yes 50!) 3Fg Swiss powder. Rubber mallet is . .um . . incidental to the loading process of such a load with those conicals *ahem*.



Also, "nitrated" paper isn't really paper soaked in saltpeter. It's made by treating any cellulose based material (paper, cotton, rice hulls, wheat chaff, etc) in a solution made of nitric and sulfuric acids. None of which I have laying around, and would defeat the "safety" aspect anyway. Both are nasty if not handled properly.

 

[arcticap]

I've been saving up powder from .22lr misfires which someone suggested to use. They would be tossed out otherwise and the bullets are very easy to pull.
There's also some residual rimfire primer material that's in the powder mix too which is light green in Remington .22lr's.

 

[Ginormous]

Recycled smokeless powder is the best for sure! Besides frugal and green, I am willing to stake a week's wages that it is definitely a single base smokeless formulation.

I am constantly amazed at the resourcefulness used by the board members here! My kind of guys!

 

[RyanM]

Also, "nitrated" paper isn't really paper soaked in saltpeter. It's made by treating any cellulose based material (paper, cotton, rice hulls, wheat chaff, etc) in a solution made of nitric and sulfuric acids. None of which I have laying around, and would defeat the "safety" aspect anyway. Both are nasty if not handled properly.

The resulting paper is also known for suddenly exploding if touched, dropped, blown on by wind, has light shine on it, is looked at funny, etc, unless you used absolutely 100% pure sulfuric and nitric acids in distilled water. The tiniest contaminants make for very unstable nitrocellulose.

Come to think of it, though, you'd essentially end up with magician's flash paper if it was done properly. Might be interesting to try storebought flash paper for those "it absolutely has to go bang" cartridges. Might be possible to use a very tiny amount of acetone to "weld" the seams?

 

[PTK]

The resulting paper is also known for suddenly exploding if touched, dropped, blown on by wind, has light shine on it, is looked at funny, etc, unless you used absolutely 100% pure sulfuric and nitric acids in distilled water. The tiniest contaminants make for very unstable nitrocellulose.

I've never heard anything so foolish from you before. Where in the WORLD did you hear such a thing, friend?

 

[arcticap]

Maybe it's like guncotton, and nitrocellulose also seems to be capable of spontaneous explosion.

...The power of guncotton made it suitable for blasting. As a projectile driver, it has around six times the gas generation of an equal volume of black powder and produces less smoke and less heating. However the sensitivity of the material during production led the British, Prussians and French to discontinue manufacture within a year....

...Further research indicated that the key was the very careful preparation of the cotton: Unless it was very well cleaned and dried, it was likely to explode spontaneously....

...Nitrocellulose is made using either concentrated sulfuric/nitric acid or sulfuric acid/potassium nitrate. In general, cotton is used as the cellulose. The cellulose is added to the acid mix to nitrate. After the cellulose has finished nitrating, it is washed and dried. Nitrocellulose is stored wet so it cannot be accidentally lit or explode....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose

 

[Ginormous]

I think I'm staying with my rice paper doobie twisters, my IMR 4227 based NC lacquer. Flash paper, properly made, is nothing more than guncotton. I'll pass.

Besides, the outstanding gentlemen at the local "tobacco shoppe" assured me this were the thinnest, finest, smoothest rice papers money could buy.

 

[RyanM]

I've never heard anything so foolish from you before. Where in the WORLD did you hear such a thing, friend?

Articap explained it, above. Making guncotton / nitrocellulose / nitrated paper, without removing every impurity you possibly can, will result in spontaneous explosion.

That's how nitrocellulose was discovered. Aprons and things which had been splashed by nitric and sulfuric acids and hung up to dry, would spontaneously combust and/or explode when touched, heated by sunlight, dropped, etc.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Also, "nitrated" paper isn't really paper soaked in saltpeter. It's made by treating any cellulose based material (paper, cotton, rice hulls, wheat chaff, etc) in a solution made of nitric and sulfuric acids.

I myself would have to disagree with you on that statement...I don't use rice or onion paper to make .54 Sharps papercutter carts. I use phonebook paper as illistrated in reply #6 soaked in a hot solution of KNO3 or salt peter...
So if that not Nitrated Paper that saturated with an oxidizer that makes it go poof and disapear, just what would you call it?
I have not seen any Civil War carts made with rice paper to date. And as far as I have found I make um pretty close to the way they were made. And they work purdy dang good...

 

[arcticap]

I guess that there are different concentrations of nitrocellulose and also different kinds of "paper". Being coated/soaked with a nitrate solution is different than having been made from or coated with a higher concentration of nitrocellulose.

Guncotton, dissolved at approximately 25% in acetone, forms a lacquer used in preliminary stages of wood finishing to develop a hard finish with a deep luster. It is normally the first coat applied, sanded, and followed by other coatings that bond to it....

....Magician's flash paper, sheets of paper or cloth made from nitrocellulose, which burn almost instantly, with a bright flash, and leave no ash....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose

 

[barman]

I'm used to nitro laquer on old Gibson and Fender guitars, but that is an all different subject.

 

[Oyeboten]

Fabric Aeroplane coverings used to be 'Doped' with NC Lacquer...Model Aeroplanes also...probably Hobby Stores still carry it in small Bottles or Cans.

 

[MikeJackmin]

I'm just speculating here, but maybe we could make a ballpark estimate of the safety factor by making a ballpark estimate of how much smokeless powder actually finds its way into each paper cartridge.

For example, if you mix 5 grains of smokeless powder into enough acetone to paint 50 cartridges, then you could estimate 0.1 grains per cartridge. Is that enough to worry about? I'd guess not, but of course I'm just guessing...

I suppose it's possible there are other safety issues to consider as well; perhaps the paper would speed ignition of the powder column by exposing a much greater surface to an ignition flame. Could this really be a problem? I dunno.

Maybe the question to ask is, has anybody ever heard of anyone experiencing an unexplained overpressure problem while using paper cartridges? If not, maybe its just one of those acceptable risks.

 

[PTK]

arcticap,

Did you really just use Wikipedia as a source?

RyanM,

I understand that the origin of nitrocellulose has no such beginnings: though, I too have heard the tales of exploding pants/aprons/tablecloths. Most online sources will report similar - that in 1864, NC was discovered from a pair of pants, an apron, or a tablecloth exploding (depending on the source)

Actual historical texts on the matter tend to give a more ordinary birth to this invention: being that von Lenk was already experimenting with NC in 1860 (four years before it was invented, according to most sources), most published texts dealing with NC tell that he invented it. From what I gather, though, there was experimentation as far back as 1832 by Braconnot, but that was mostly a lab experiment and, sadly, NC didn't go anywhere for almost 30 years.



Anyway, enough of that - the main issue is not in the purity of chemicals used (as long as they're strong enough to be used as reagents, they're good), but in properly neutralizing the acids after nitration. When improperly neutralized or not neutralized at all, yes, ALL nitrated explosives (whether primary or secondary) are quite touchy indeed.


MikeJackmin,

What you seem to be asking is; will NC laquer or nitrated paper cause overpressure problems in blackpowder arms? I do not believe that to be an issue at all, as the method by which NC, NG, and other smokeless based powders work isn't present: namely, the progressive building of pressure as the powder burns (hence "progressive burn rate" when dealing with smokeless powder). What this means is that using a pure smokeless charge, as the powder burns the pressure increases which makes it burn faster which increases the pressure, ad nauseum.

Just the small amount present would barely increase pressure, if at all. If pressure were to significantly increase upon the use of smokeless products, it would be more related to the blackpowder being ignited more efficiently (as you pondered) than it would be to the smokeless itself.

 

[Ginormous]

Just the small amount present would barely increase pressure, if at all. If pressure were to significantly increase upon the use of smokeless products, it would be more related to the blackpowder being ignited more efficiently (as you pondered) than it would be to the smokeless itself.

I can report, in very limited field trials due to the rainy weather in the South, that NC lacquer does in fact aid in combusting the remaining bits the paper cartridges. Both of my guns are still in one piece, with no evidence of overpressure. Not that I'd recognize overpressure in a BP pistol anyway, short of the cylinder rupturing.

Because of some of the concerns mentioned here, I mixed up a fresh batch of NC lacquer using IMR 4227 and acetone since I had no idea what the percentage of NC to acetone was in my old mixture. I worked it out to 12.5% NC to acetone by weight, roughly. This new batch was much thinner in appearance than my old one. Adhesion and stiffness were still really quite good once the carrier evaporated, and the paper carts went in like they were meant to be there. Reloading overall was MUCH faster this way, although it does take preparation beforehand. Once my Triple-P arrives, I'll be banging out cylinder reloads like a cartridge user, if I am inclined to do things that quickly.

On a few cartridges, I dipped the still moist butt into 3Fg black powder as a test to see if ignition was any different with the "primer" added. It appeared to make no difference that I could perceive, but looked really cool anyway. Also, it might be a good idea for those that use 777 to make paper cartridges to do this to give a boost to the ignition process. Wow, 15% smaller paper carts . . . hmmm

Out of 24 paper cartridges, I experience no hang fires, no failure to fires and (almost) no residual paper after discharge. The paper that was left, if it was paper, was not glowing or smoldering, and looked to be "frayed" or fuzzy and black. Heck I get more lint in the cylinder wiping down the guns than was in the cylinder after firing. Over all I am very happy.

Particulars for this batch were as follows:

12.5% IMR 4227 to acetone by weight NC lacquer
Elements 1.25 rice paper
Swiss 3Fg powder - 25 grains and 35 grains
CCI #10 caps on the '58 Remington
RWS 1075 caps on the '48 Colt Dragoon
50/50 lube pill over paper cartridge
.457 round balls and 220 gr conicals from Voodoochile's Boolit casting World HQ

 

[barneyrw]

When using paper cartridges in a percussion revolver, does grease or a wad on top of the ball in each chamber become a must do, especially with nitrated paper to prevent chain fires?

 

[Ginormous]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I do it to keep the BP fouling nice and gooey. I defer to the much more experienced BP shooters for the how's and why's. All I know is it keeps my Remington '58 going, and going, and going, . . ., and my dish pan hands nice and soft for that nights' cleanup.

My large frame Colt seems much less affected by the fouling, and seems only stoppable by a spent cap falling into the works. And even then, I have inadvertently horsed it on to the next chamber several times, only to discover the formerly jammed cap was now a mash of unidentifiable copper.

I have never experienced a chainfire, and hopefully never will by implementing what others havre already discovered. Tight fitting caps, lube pellet of 50/50 Crisco/Beeswax, and tight fitting round balls or conicals that shave a ring of lead. Besides, they're fun to make. Yes,
I am entertained easily.

My humble advice: don't re-invent the wheel, and use lube pellets.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

All I know is it keeps my Remington '58 going, and going, and going, .

Amen Ginormous, Rems rule ifin ya pay attention to what works best :O)
Well done Shooter! Lube Pills fix all paper carts were a passin' fad ... C&B Shooters that shoot all day use Lube Pills:O)
HeeHeeHee!

 

[arcticap]

When using paper cartridges in a percussion revolver, does grease or a wad on top of the ball in each chamber become a must do, especially with nitrated paper to prevent chain fires?

I'm not sure, but whether there was nitrated paper in the chamber or not, wouldn't it be better to place the wool wad under the ball so that it could be compressed to better seal off the powder?
This is because the paper should be getting cut as the paper cartridge is loaded and rammed.
I suppose that if a second wad was also desired then that could be placed over the ball as an option.
However I believe that the Ox-Yoke Originals Revolver Wonder Seals are designed to be placed over the ball as lube would though, even though they look like lube pills which are normally placed under the ball.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...de=IK&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat603824

 

[Ginormous]

Smoking Gun, here's my lube pill carrier made from a Michael's Arts and Crafts steel candle mold. I through it in the fireplace, let it get good and hot, then covered it with ashes until the fire burned down. Dug it out, and this was the result. They're actually a lot of colors in the steel, from straw, to pale blue, dark blue, etc. I wish the camera did a better job capturing the colors. It's really pretty, and after waxing with beeswax, seems to be rustproof. That's an RWS 1075 percussion cap can that got the same treatment next to it. I use it to carry tiny replacement parts I've ordered from VTIgunparts.

 

[AdmiralB]

Heh. Can't do that with RWS tins now...they're plastic!

 

[Ginormous]

Tell me you're kidding, AdmiralB! Those are the coolest tins ever.

 

[madcratebuilder]

You can get empty tins in different sizes from BLOCKADE RUNNER, INC.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I do it to keep the BP fouling nice and gooey.

I agree, if you have tight fitting caps and shave a good ring from the round ball all you need lube for is keep the fouling soft.