Nm blackhawk 44 special and 310 cast bullets..?

[35 Whelen]

Sure, I completely agree that a properly loaded .44spl can easily take a deer if the shooter does his part. However, a bull elk is a much larger critter than any deer. They are particularly large up here.
Can someone take a Bull elk with a .44spl.....probably.
Should someone try to take an elk with one, probably not.

300gr bullets may not be necessary either but it was fun to develop the load. They were real thumpers

Also in Handloader #236 Pearce relates:

A number of years ago, I planted two 250- grain cast bullets (from Lyman
mould 429421) through the lungs of a bull elk at over 100 yards. They were driven 1,200 fps from a Colt New Frontier with a 7-1/2" inch barrel. Both bullets exited the offside, and the bull ran 20 or 30 feet before going down.

Someone better tell Mr. Pearce before he does it again!

Point is, if the .44 Magnum loads to which I referred will work for elk, (and I don't think anyone has ever questioned that)then so will a .44 Special running a similar bullet at a similar velocity.

35W

 

[Mad Chemist]

True enough. But at that point it is a .44spl in name only. If it were run in any revolver aside from a Ruger, BFR, or similar it would certainly damage the gun.

My point being that the loads you are referencing are basically .44mag loads in .44spl cases. They are far more powerful than any published .44spl loads.

So the real question becomes: Is it safe to work up to .44mag pressures and velocities with .44spl brass in a RBH that is chambered in .44spl. And the answer to that question is: Yes, sort of.

 

[murf]

can't let your last post get away without comment, mad chemist.

the keith load that some of us have been referencing runs about 25,000 psi. saami max pressure for the 44 special is 15,500 psi. saami max pressure for the 44 magnum is 36,000 psi. so, the load is not a 44 mag load in a 44 special case (although this load is a special case).

so, your question is misleading. handloaders, as always, should use their own discretion and knowledge when deciding on a load for their gun.

fyi, buffalobore makes a "low recoil" load for the 44 magnum. it uses a 255 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint. muzzle velocity out of a 5.5 inch ruger redhawk is 1350 fps.

murf

 

[35 Whelen]

True enough. But at that point it is a .44spl in name only. If it were run in any revolver aside from a Ruger, BFR, or similar it would certainly damage the gun.

My point being that the loads you are referencing are basically .44mag loads in .44spl cases. They are far more powerful than any published .44spl loads.

So the real question becomes: Is it safe to work up to .44mag pressures and velocities with .44spl brass in a RBH that is chambered in .44spl. And the answer to that question is: Yes, sort of.

Mad Chemist you really owe it to yourself to read through the articles that are found at the link I posted earlier. There's so much to be learned about the .44 Special therein.

The load in question, the Keith load, has been published for decades along with pressure information. Again, check the articles and you'll find publications with this load in them dating back to the '50's. Also, just to put the cartridges potential into perspective, loaded with a 15,000 psi load of Power Pistol, my 5 1/2" Uberti will run a 258 gr. cast SWC right at 1000 fps.

To me it boils down to this: Should I so choose, I can carry .44 Magnum factory equivalent loads in a smaller frame, lighter revolver such as the Ruger Flat Top.

I've never really understood why the .44 Mag fans get all in an uproar over the Keith .44 Special load.
35W

 

[Mad Chemist]

Mad Chemist you really owe it to yourself to read through the articles that are found at the link I posted earlier. There's so much to be learned about the .44 Special therein.

The load in question, the Keith load, has been published for decades along with pressure information. Again, check the articles and you'll find publications with this load in them dating back to the '50's. Also, just to put the cartridges potential into perspective, loaded with a 15,000 psi load of Power Pistol, my 5 1/2" Uberti will run a 258 gr. cast SWC right at 1000 fps.

To me it boils down to this: Should I so choose, I can carry .44 Magnum factory equivalent loads in a smaller frame, lighter revolver such as the Ruger Flat Top.

I've never really understood why the .44 Mag fans get all in an uproar over the Keith .44 Special load.
35W

Yup, worked up while developing the .44mag. IIRC, Mr. Keith wrecked a few revolvers in the process And the old 17gr 2400 load always publishes with the caveat to only use it in large frame well built revolvers. That load has been around for a very long time and it has also hastened the demise of quite a few lesser built N frame revolvers over the decades.

And the old Skeeter skelton load of 7.5gr Unique will get a 240gr to around 1000fps too. But it's not easy on the hand or the gun when shot from any light medium framed revolvers.

Gentlemen, I'm familiar with these loads. You know as well as I do that they are .44spl loads that come with an asterisk and a lot of bold warning print whenever they are published. They are the "Special" spl loads.

I'll cede the fine point to you all. I think we will just have to agree to disagree at this point and that is OK.

 

[Walkalong]

Points being, we are talking about loading the .44 Spl over SAMMI pressure for the caliber but not to .44 Mag pressures. These loads (22K/25K?) are considered by many folks very familiar with handguns and reloading to be safe in certain guns. They are most assuredly not safe in all (many) .44 Spl handguns.

Y'all be careful out there.

 

[the Black Spot]

We did answer the original question though. yes, you can load a 300 gr bullet and achieve the desired velocity(950 fps) with AL 2400(which was one of the three powders listed) and be fired safely in the ruger NM blackhawk

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, it sounds like it, but I haven't studied it, or the 22/25 K .45 Colt loads for Model 25's, because I bought a .44 Mag instead. Just reminding folks to be careful.

 

[35 Whelen]

Yup, worked up while developing the .44mag. IIRC, Mr. Keith wrecked a few revolvers in the process And the old 17gr 2400 load always publishes with the caveat to only use it in large frame well built revolvers. That load has been around for a very long time and it has also hastened the demise of quite a few lesser built N frame revolvers over the decades.

And the old Skeeter skelton load of 7.5gr Unique will get a 240gr to around 1000fps too. But it's not easy on the hand or the gun when shot from any light medium framed revolvers.

Gentlemen, I'm familiar with these loads. You know as well as I do that they are .44spl loads that come with an asterisk and a lot of bold warning print whenever they are published. They are the "Special" spl loads.

I'll cede the fine point to you all. I think we will just have to agree to disagree at this point and that is OK.

Just a couple of FYI's:

Another publication you ought to read is Mr. Keith's "Sixguns". He didn't work up .44 Special loads while developing the .44 Magnum. His .44 Special load was developed long before the advent of the Magnum. Incidentally, the above referenced book was written in advance of the advent of the .44 Magnum.

Likewise, as recorded in his book, he didn't wreck quite a few revolvers developing .44 Special loads. Going from memory from having read said book a couple of years ago, he destroyed one revolver and it was a 45 Colt. I've seen unverified references from 1920's letters he'd written to the American Rifleman in which describes having destroyed two other revolvers. But they too were 45 Colts, not .44 Specials.

I shoot LOTS of the Skeeter load and it's equivalent (I have a range 100' or so behind my loading room). It's a dandy load and very accurate with any cast bullet I've tried in the 255-260 gr. range. If it was indeed hard on handguns, I would have long since worn out one particular Uberti .44 Special. What I've found that tends to take the brunt of these loads is the base pin which is a super easy fix (I replace them with Ruger pins which fit perfectly and are much harder) but that's just my experience.

35W

 

[the Black Spot]

Thx whelen. The first handload i tried in my blackhawk was skeeters load behind a lee mold that dropped a 260 gr ww cast bullet. Pie plate groups at 25 yds. Gonna drop the powder load down 1/2 gr and try again. Also gonna check some 2400, but this bullet takes a lot of range work to find right load for. One of my reasons for wanting to stick with the 310 grainer.
Guess i ought to ask for 429421 mold for Christmas!

 

[lmstncwby]

Ditto, 35 Whelen. My copy of Sixguns by Keith is falling apart from use (bought it in 1974 or thereabouts). Keith wanted Remington to bring out his load commercially. The guns he blew up had a stiff load of No. 80 powder, which, apparently, was quite temperature sensitive and somewhat unstable. When Bullseye, Unique and 2400 became available, he abandoned No. 80 quicker than "Filly-Be-Jiggered"! The concerns about pressures being too high (even though Keith had his loads pressure tested by White's Labratories to show that pressures weren't "excessive") also troubled Remington, who resisted Keith's urgings for several decades (the liability issues were obvious). They finally lengthened the case to prevent the load being used in older guns and the .44 "Magnum" was born. I have shot the 7.5 gr of Unique load in a Charter Arms Bulldog and while very accurate, was a real thumper in that gun.

In the late '70s, I did run some 265 gr .444 Marlin bullets backed by 296 (the older version) with CCI 350 primers through my Ruger Super Blackhawk. It sounded like a cannon going off and produced a heck of a fireball! I shot that particular load out to 300 yards at gongs and it was quite accurate. I didn't care for 2400 that much (too much unburnt powder no matter what primer I used) and used heavy loads of H-110 (before it became the same as 296) instead quite a bit and it was very accurate.

 

[35 Whelen]

Thx whelen. The first handload i tried in my blackhawk was skeeters load behind a lee mold that dropped a 260 gr ww cast bullet. Pie plate groups at 25 yds. Gonna drop the powder load down 1/2 gr and try again. Also gonna check some 2400, but this bullet takes a lot of range work to find right load for. One of my reasons for wanting to stick with the 310 grainer.
Guess i ought to ask for 429421 mold for Christmas!

As I stated, I shoot the .44 Specials just about exclusively.

If the Skeeter load won't shoot, I can say with 100% confidence it's NOT the load. In fact I've not found any load with Unique in any of my .44 Special revolvers that won't shoot well.
(And by the way, I've done some extensive chronographing of Unique vs. AL 20/28 and they are for all practical purposes ballistic twins, at least in the .44 Special, the latter giving slightly higher velocities (<2%). So I've included those loads)

Check these out:

This used to be my favorite practice load (I'll explain in a bit). It runs around 850 fps, a tad less from a shorter barrel, and is just silly accurate:











I say used to be because I recently discovered I can load a 255 gr. RN from a Lee mould over 6.0 grs. of Unique and get practically the same accuracy and point of impact. The nice thing about the RN bullet is I can tell at glance my practice load from my hunting load (7.5 grs. of Unique or 8.2 grs. of Power Pistol over the RCBS 44-250KT bullet).








Yes, by all means get a 429421 mould or a variation thereof. (I happen to have an extra 2-cavity Lyman 429421 that drops 248.5 gr. bullets that I'd sell if you're interested. PM me) The Lyman 44-250KT is an outstanding mould that drops amazingly accurate bullets for me.

One last thing, Rugers aren't exactly known for their close tolerances. Many times the cylinder throats are undersized which will destroy accuracy, but it's relatively inexpensive to have them opened and uniformed. (Look for Doug Guy on the Cast Boolit forum)
Slug the barrel and feel for a tight spot where it screws into the frame. If there is a tight spot present, it'll help to fire-lap it out.

35W

 

[the Black Spot]

I slugged the bore(.429), no tight spots. Chambers were .432-433.
I will keep at it with the unique powder.
Pm sent

 

[35 Whelen]

PM replied.

 

[the Black Spot]

Thx for the pics. That is some awesome shootin!

 

[CraigC]

35Whelen has done a fine job and I will confirm some points.

Yup, worked up while developing the .44mag. IIRC, Mr. Keith wrecked a few revolvers in the process And the old 17gr 2400 load always publishes with the caveat to only use it in large frame well built revolvers. That load has been around for a very long time and it has also hastened the demise of quite a few lesser built N frame revolvers over the decades.

You need to know your history. Keith developed his 1200fps load decades before the .44Mag, which is not actually a cartridge he developed. He simply wanted his .44Spl load adopted, which was a 250gr at 1200fps and 26,000psi. What we got was a 240gr at 1450fps and over 40,000CUP.

No, lots of uninformed folks repeat the crap about him ruining a bunch of guns but it's not founded in reality. He blew the loading gate off one milsurp Colt SAA .45 before going to the .44Spl. I never recall any .44's getting sprung.

If it were run in any revolver aside from a Ruger, BFR, or similar it would certainly damage the gun.

His load is perfectly safe for the N-frame. It's also safe for the post-war Colt SAA, USFA SAA, New Frontier, custom and factory mid-frame Blackhawks and New Vaqueros. Which aren't "large frame" guns.

I don't think a .44spl is enough gun for a bull elk. It may fail to penetrate if it hits the shoulder.

I have a friend that hunts elk with a scoped Redhawk in .44mag. The loads we worked up are 300gr but they are moving much faster than 950fps.

I have to "call BS". A 300gr at 900fps will kill the piss out of any elk that walks. It won't knock him down but it will do a fine job if properly placed and probably exit, shoulder or not.

My point being that the loads you are referencing are basically .44mag loads in .44spl cases. They are far more powerful than any published .44spl loads.

More nonsense. A 250gr at 1200fps and 26,000psi is a .44Spl load, period. The same bullet 250fps faster and 40,000CUP is a .44Mag load. A 355gr at 1250fps and 40,000CUP is a .44Mag load. That crap the factories foist upon us is watered down.

 

[Mad Chemist]

35Whelen has done a fine job and I will confirm some points.


You need to know your history. Keith developed his 1200fps load decades before the .44Mag, which is not actually a cartridge he developed. He simply wanted his .44Spl load adopted, which was a 250gr at 1200fps and 26,000psi. What we got was a 240gr at 1450fps and over 40,000CUP.

No, lots of uninformed folks repeat the crap about him ruining a bunch of guns but it's not founded in reality. He blew the loading gate off one milsurp Colt SAA .45 before going to the .44Spl. I never recall any .44's getting sprung.



His load is perfectly safe for the N-frame. It's also safe for the post-war Colt SAA, USFA SAA, New Frontier, custom and factory mid-frame Blackhawks and New Vaqueros. Which aren't "large frame" guns.




I have to "call BS". A 300gr at 900fps will kill the piss out of any elk that walks. It won't knock him down but it will do a fine job if properly placed and probably exit, shoulder or not.



More nonsense. A 250gr at 1200fps and 26,000psi is a .44Spl load, period. The same bullet 250fps faster and 40,000CUP is a .44Mag load. A 355gr at 1250fps and 40,000CUP is a .44Mag load. That crap the factories foist upon us is watered down.

I think you need to check your manuals instead of getting nasty.

I challenge you to find any current published load from a bullet or powder manufacturer for .44spl that exceeds 15,000CUP. Guess what? You won't.

With regards to elk hunting, they must grow a little smaller out in your neck of the woods. Fact of the matter is, up here a bull elk is a lot closer to the size of a bull moose than he is to a buck deer. And our terrain is steep as it gets. If he runs a distance and expires anywhere in the Coast Range mountains from Nor Cal up to BC, there is a very good chance you will not find him again.

Regardless, ethics is up to the individual. I personally won't go after large game with a manstopper cartridge. I will use a hunting load to get the job done. Your personal ethics will dictate what you do. Mine will dictate what I do.

You must have missed that line in my last post on this thread where I ceded some points to the other gentlemen and politely agreed to disagree. A little civility can go a long ways.

 

[CraigC]

I think you need to check your manuals instead of getting nasty.

Not getting nasty, challenging uninformed opinion with fact and using your own argument against you, hence reusing the "I call BS" phrase.

I could care less what the manuals say. These loads have only been in use for 80yrs. We know what guns they're safe for, what pressures are involved and use the same prudence that keeps us from loading .270 cartridges into a .30-06.

With regards to elk hunting, they must grow a little smaller out in your neck of the woods.

I'm sorry, is my experience restricted to my home state???

I personally won't go after large game with a manstopper cartridge.

If you think a 300gr at 900fps is lacking in anything but range, you have little to no experience hunting with handguns.

I ceded some points to the other gentlemen and politely agreed to disagree.

Whether or not to hunt with such a load is your choice. However, disregarding it as inadequate or implying that to use such a load is unethical is misleading at best, inflammatory at worst. You can't call a man's ethics into question and "disagree as gentlemen".

A little civility can go a long ways.

Indeed but my patience wears thin when so much misinformation is posted.

 

[Mad Chemist]

I think your own statements belie your guru aspirations.

I'm done being polite, you've made it too difficult.

Stop following me around to different threads just to stir up trouble.

 

[Walkalong]

Hopefully the OP has gotten their answers.

 

[the Black Spot]

NM BLACKHAWK 300-310 cast bullets...?

Since i can only assume the other thread was closed do to some rantings, i opened a different one.
Original question: "can i achieve 950 fps with a 310 gr cast bullet in 5.5" barreled NM ruger blackhawk 44 special using unique,blue dot, or 2400?"

Answer was: "yes it can be done"

Thanks to all who responded on the other thread with helpful info.

Fyi: it is always funny to me how there has to be a judgemental "why" or "what for" in these kinds of threads. I cant grasp why some want to stray from the original question, i just live with it and go on.