No Lead "Green Ammo"

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Dot_mdb

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Saw this article about the government switching to no lead ammo for practice. How long do you think it will be until it is forced on us? My club is facing a cleanup bill of up to $1,000,000 for the lead we have injected into the ground.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5516295/

Bullets going the way of gas — unleaded
Training center adopts 'green ammo,' military phasing it in

Stephen Morton / AP file
This sign greets users of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center weapon range in Glynco, Ga. The center has adopted unleaded bullets at its four ranges.
The Associated Press
Updated: 3:17 p.m. ET July 26, 2004GLYNCO, Ga. - Officers aim their submachine guns at small steel targets and fire short bursts of bullets that, on impact, disintegrate into copper-colored dust.

So-called “green ammo†— bullets made of iron, copper and other metals less toxic than lead — has become the norm at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, essentially the nation’s largest police academy.

Responsible for training the employees of 76 federal agencies, from the Secret Service to the U.S. Park Service police, the center has virtually created a market for unleaded ammunition that officials say poses fewer health and environmental risks.

“This is one of the most significant advances in police training I’ve seen in my 20-plus-year career,†said Mark Fritts, a senior firearms instructor at the center.

Made from compressed metal particles, the ammo was introduced at the center six years ago and now makes up 75 percent of the 20 million rounds fired annually at the center’s campuses in Glynco, Ga.; Artesia, N.M.; Charleston, S.C.; and Cheltenham, Md.

The center, the nation’s largest user of ammunition outside the military, started asking manufacturers in 1994 to develop bullets with no risk of injury to cadets from metal fragments when fired at close range.

Benefits vs. 3 cent cost difference
When manufacturers began designing the bullets without lead, the environmental benefits became apparent.

“One bullet doesn’t contain a lot of lead, but hundreds of thousands if not millions of bullets can be very significant,†said Steve Taylor of the Military Toxics Project, an environmental group. “Lead is a heavy metal that remains in the environment for a very long time.â€

Next month, the center will close four outdoor ranges next month to begin a yearlong cleanup that will cost $2.8 million.

It had tested the ranges regularly for lead contamination and required workers cleaning up the dust and bullets to wear protective gear. Even the firearms instructors had to have lead levels in their blood checked annually.

The center estimates its switch to unleaded ammo has eliminated some 70,000 pounds of lead waste — an effort recognized by the White House this month with an environmental stewardship award.

Center officials say savings in environmental cleanup and health prevention should offset the higher cost of unleaded ammo, which costs about 20 cents per round compared with 17 cents for lead bullets.

'Wave of the future'
One of the center’s biggest challenges was convincing other agencies that unleaded ammunition had the same performance as standard-issue, said Director Connie Patrick.

“We did blind tests where they didn’t know if shooters were firing the lead or unleaded,†Patrick said, “and it proved itself.â€

Because the unleaded bullets turn to dust on impact, they’re used only in training. Since 1994, the military has been phasing in its own version of a “green bullet†made of a tungsten composite that’s suitable for combat.

Remington Arms Co., a North Carolina-based manufacturer that has sold the center 16 million rounds of unleaded ammo since 2000, says the ammunition’s popularity is catching on with law enforcement at the state and local levels.

“It’s the wave o the future,†said Remington spokesman Eddie Stevenson.

© 2004 The Associated Pres
 
I've fired a box or so of green frangible ammo. The article mentions several advantages that this stuff has over traditional ball, especially for indoor training. The only downside is that it tends to have a lighter load than standard ball or HP's, and as a result it can jam if you aren't diligent in keeping a proper grip. I had two rounds out of fifty jam in my P7, a pistol that otherwise has never yet jammed on me with Win. Whitebox, S&B, or home loads.
 
Since 1994, the military has been phasing in its own version of a “green bullet†made of a tungsten composite that’s suitable for combat.
THere goes one source of mil-surp ammo. With the tungsten core it will be classified as AP, and therefore verboten to sell to us of of the unwashed masses.

On the whole, I don't have much of a problem with going to lead free ammo, so long as the replacement works just as well. IOW I won't switch to lead free for hunting or SD ammo if the new stuff doesn't perform as well or better in those roles. For target practice, if it's less expensive but otherwise just as good then I'm all for it.
 
What gets me about this article is not the bullets, it's the fact that there are *76* federal agencies with armed agents. Beware the Department of Education's precision supply closet intrusion teams.
 
It sounds reasonable for hunting or range work. I laugh a little at the SD use of it. I mean, I really hope to hit what I'm aiming at and I really want to do more damage than just lead poisoning.
 
“Lead is a heavy metal that remains in the environment for a very long time.â€
What a load of techno-speak, double-talk CRAP.

It CAME from the environment. It's not like it's manufactured or compounded or created in some fancy chemical reaction. It came out of the ground in the first place!

I've thought for some time that it won't be the BATF who shuts us down, it will be the EPA.
 
What a load of techno-speak, double-talk CRAP.

It CAME from the environment. It's not like it's manufactured or compounded or created in some fancy chemical reaction. It came out of the ground in the first place!

Lead dust is the way it usually gets into your body. Just because it came from the ground doesn't mean it's healthy for you.
 
Lead dust is the way it usually gets into your body. Just because it came from the ground doesn't mean it's healthy for you.

And a solid piece of lead in the ground is going to get into my body how?
 
I'm not saying it's healthy, but it's more than a little misleading to pretend lead is manufactured hazardous waste. It's a naturally occurring substance found commonly in the ground.

Saying it's a heavy metal that stays in the environment a long time is just plain stupid. Of course it stays in the environment for a very long time. How's since the beginning of the world for a very long time? How about FOREVER? Both are correct.

He's talking like shooting is resulting in an increase in the lead level of the planet--that's crazy.

Also, metallic lead, even lead dust is not nearly the danger that it's made out to be. The lead styphnate compounds in primers result in nearly all the lead intake that shooters encounter. Metallic lead, even in dust form is very heavy and does not stay in the air to be inhaled. Also, metallic lead is virtually inert. Inhaling it would be pretty much harmless. You have to eat it--get it into your digestive system where your gastric fluids can work on it before you have problem. Inhalation problems are inevitably the result of inhaling lead compounds, not metallic lead dust.
 
My main concern with lead-free ammo would be not the bullet, but the primer (since most lead-free ammunition also goes with something other than lead styphnate for the priming compound, for indoor training use). I've read that the substitutes tend to have less long-term stability than current primers, but that may have changed since then, I suppose.

If the ammunition is just for training, it's not a big deal, but I like ammunition to have a long perfect-reliability shelf life.
 
I predict we'll pull the same stunt on lead as we did on asbestos.

Asbestos left in place is not a problem. Remediated asbestos sites is a major problems. It took a few decades to figure out that if we just left it alone the danger would be minimal compared to cleaning it up.

We'll clean up a few lead site then figure out the stuff is not leaching into the soil. Put up a few signs and that'll be the end of it.


. . . . . . unless certain political and environmental groups see it as a way to punish gun fiends. Then all bets are off.
 
Brings up a thought.
Back in 1983 I was a member of a local club/range. Transfer out and membership expired.
Is the EPA types and rest of government holding ALL members, past and present liable for the cleanup?

Are they gonna take my old Ford truck? And my house?

Vick
 
www.pmcgreen.com

been wanting to get some of this. havent seen it at any store online or local.

want to find out how good it is for apartment type settings and walls.
probably be nice onboard passenger jets for air marshals or pilots.
 
I have shot some "frangible ammo", that was supposed to be green, lead free, and the safety angle for inside shooting or steel targets set close, no richochet.

I could not warm up to it. AS mentioned before the lighter bullet, and POA/POI was different.

I would think all copper from what I'm hearing would be better. I have used Bismuth loads in shotguns, with great results. How would Bismuth do for handgun bullets??
 
I wonder if my house will become a superfund site since I have 4 5 gallon buckets of wheel weights in my garage?:uhoh:

Todays shooting ranges may become tomorows lead and copper mines.
 
Is the EPA types and rest of government holding ALL members, past and present liable for the cleanup?

Are they gonna take my old Ford truck? And my house?
Short answer: No

Long answer: If the EPA and Co is going to force gun clubs to clean up the lead it will be the club itself (as a corporation) that will be responsible. The individual members will not have to shell out any money, especially if they let their membership expire a long time ago. The only way an individual might be held to pay for it would be if they were one of the owners of the club and were dumb enough to not incorporate the club so as to shield themselves personally if anything bad happened to the club.

This is not to say that it won't affect members. If the club stays open (not likely in most cases) the membership dues will skyrocket as the club attempts to recover. But if they jack the rates up too high, nobody will join or renew, and down she goes.
 
If you won't switch your hunting or self-defense ammunition to a "green" product, then you certainly shouldn't practice with it.

Your peaceful shooting activity should include all of the ingredients that may be put to use during non-peaceful circumstances.

Asbestos was best. Lead is best.

TM
 
Lead is a good example of a heavy metal that scientists still argue over concerning its effect on health. The most likely ingress, from bullets and electronics, comes from dissolving in water and getting into the local water supply. I don't know the truth about lead toxicity but just because it is pre-existing does not mean it can't be bad to concentrate and redistribute it.

Or put another way, how would you like to put a radioactive Uranium or Polonium rod in your pocket? Both are pre-existing in nature but seriously bad for you in concentrated form.

Regardless of your personal feeling about lead the Europeans are leading the charge with a piece of legislation, commonly called "Reduction of Hazardous Substances" or RoHS for short. It bans the sale of any goods in the E.U. which contain lead, cadmium, and four other nasties. It takes effect on finished goods as of July 2006. There are some exceptions listed in a document annex. It is creating real havok among electronics manufacturers as they scramble to replace lead in solders and solderable finishes.

Lest you think it won't come here California passed a law last year, AB25 I think, which calls for good sold in CA to match those E.U. requirements a year later (IIRC).
 
And a solid piece of lead in the ground is going to get into my body how?

Water Run Off. Rain washes it into ditches which goes into creeks and so on and so on. What does not go into the ditches goes into the ground water. After it gets into the ground water, it gets into peoples wells. This is not a slam, it's just a fact.

TerryBob
 
radioactive Uranium or Polonium rod in your pocket? Both are pre-existing in nature but seriously bad for you in concentrated form.
Metallic lead can be found in the environment--no need to concentrate or process it to get it that way. Anyway, as I pointed out, it's the compounds and oxides that tend to be the problem, and those can CERTAINLY be found naturally occurring in large quantities.

Uranium is fairly harmless in the environment, and concentrating it is not an easy task.
 
how would you like to put a radioactive Uranium or Polonium (sic) rod in your pocket? Both are pre-existing in nature but seriously bad for you in concentrated form.
Uranium, even in a solid rod is not all that dangerous. The radiation given off by uranium is only a problem if you ingest it, or if you have open wounds. Simple everyday clothing and your skin is typically enough to stop the radiation from uranium.

Plutonium is another matter entirely. Put a dime size piece in your dresser drawer and in a week you'll be terminal if not already dead.

Lead compunds are really bad for you if ingested. However, it is really most harmful to pregnant women, babies and children. Pretty much once your brain has been fully developed, while still poisonous, lead is not nearly as harmful. An adult can suffer lead poisoning, and if treated will have relatively minimal long term effects. A child who gets lead poisoning will become mentally retarded and never recover from that condition even if treated.
 
Plutonium is another matter entirely. Put a dime size piece in your dresser drawer and in a week you'll be terminal if not already dead.
Actually, it would depend on the isotope. Pu-239 (weapons-grade) isn't all that radioactive, but Pu-244 (very short half-life, meaning very high decay rate) might be. Also, the alphas from plutonium won't penetrate a piece of paper, so you'd basically be worrying about gamma radiation.
 
I find it absolutely amazing that the human race managed to survive before the hatching of the EPA and the other assorted agencies dedicated to our welfare...( Actually more dedicated to expanding their powers and scope of operations)
 
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