No More S&W Mag Compatibility

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Funny, but in February 2000 Smith & Wesson also said it was complete BS that they were negotiating with the government on this agreement.

30 days later?

Signed, sealed, and delivered.


BevrFevr,

Are you complacent about your rights, ambivilient when it comes to the dangers facing gun owners today and in the near future?

Are you without a care in the world about your rights, the legacy left to us by the Founding Fathers?

Nothing personal, I just like to know who is endangering my feedoms through a lack of... everything.


M58,

Are you tired of those who decry Sarah Brady, Diane Feinstein, Chuck Schumer, and their activities against American gun owners and gun rights?

Are you tired of hearing about Handgun Control Incorporated, the Violence Policy Center, the Democratic Party?

Please tell me, what is this axe I have to grind?

Is this my particular axe?

"f.Minimum barrel length. Each firearm make and model must have a barrel length of at least 3", unless it has an average group diameter test result of 1.7" or less at seven yards, 3.9" or less at 14 yards, and 6.3" or less at 21 yards. The average group diameter test result is the arithmetic mean of the results of three separate trials, each performed on a different sample firearm of the make and model at issue. For each trial, the firearm shall fire five rounds at a target from the specified distance and the largest spread in inches between the center of any of the holes made in a test target shall be the result of the trial."


How about this? Is this edge sharp enough for you?

"b. Minimum length and height standards. The pistol`s combined length and height must not be less than 10" with the height being at least 4" and the length being at least 6", unless it has an average group diameter test result of 1.7" or less at seven yards, 3.9" or less at 14 yards, and 6.3" or less at 21 yds. The average group diameter test result is the arithmetic mean of the results of three separate trials, each performed on a different sample firearm of the make and model at issue. For each trial, the firearm shall fire five rounds at a target from the specified distance and the largest spread in inches between the center of any of the holes made in a test target shall be the result of the trial."


How about this one?

"e.Large capacity magazines. No pistol make or model designed after January 1, 2000 shall be able to accept magazines manufactured prior to September 14, 1994, with a greater than 10 round capacity, and such models shall not be capable of being easily modified to accept such magazines. Nor shall ammunition magazines that are able to accept more than 10 rounds be sold by the manufacturer parties to this Agreement or their authorized dealers and distributors. See Part II.A.1.h, below."

Whoops, that's the entire point of this discussion now, isn't it?

Then we have this...

"III. Oversight


A.Oversight Commission,

1.Composition. An Oversight Commission comprised of five members shall be formed. The Commission members shall serve five-year terms except for first terms as noted and shall be appointed as follows:

a.Two members by the city and county parties to the Agreement. First appointees to serve two- and three-year terms, respectively.

b.One by the State parties to the Agreement. First appointee to serve a three year term.

cOne member by the manufacturer parties to the Agreement. First appointee to serve a four-year term.

d.One selected by ATF. First appointee to serve a five-year term."



Those are just a few of the provisions that Smith & Wesson agreed to in "The Agremeent," provisions that are still in effect.

To tell you all the truth, I've completely lost faith in the large part of the gunowning public to either understand, or care, about this agreement, or the threat that it poses to their rights, yourself included.

I have to wonder what the reaction of all of these people will be, though, when the government forces strict compliance with the agreement.

I'm predicting lots of moaning, cursing, and cries of "WHY DIDN'T NRA SAVE US!"

If this is what we've come to in this country, then perhaps we no longer deserve the legacy left to us by the Founders.
 
Mike,
I am busy beating PAT's chops in the Revo section. So I will get back with you. But I have the agreement on paper at home. We have more pressing issues currently.
Lack of CCW in some states, terrorist legistlation, increasingly military-like LE agencies. I realize you really like to hang on this S&W issue. But, I think your efforts could be redirected...more usefully. We have newer and more eminient threats.
Kathi.
 
P.S. The NRA has nearly sabotaged the CCW effort in Ohio. Check with PRO.
The NRA is not nearly our friend. By "our" I mean civilians. You want to see apathy check the rank and file of LE agencies. "Civilian" is a derogatory term applied to the public.

The Bill of Rights is under attack on all sides. I prefer not to make a final stand at the Alamo--thank you.
 
As far as the general issue regarding Smith and Wesson and the HUD aggreement...later signed by Smith and Wesson with the City of Boston...I have to side with Mike Irwin.

To forgive Smith and Wesson without Smith and Wesson actually doing something worth forgiving them for sends a message to the rest of the gun makers that they can screw over the Second Amendment as badly as they want to, and everything will be okay as long as they mouth empty promises afterwards.

No thanks.

Not only will I not buy that 696 I really, really wanted, but I will continue to lobby for my department to buy products from anyone other than Smith and Wesson.

LawDog
 
back on topic

Well I would be willing to say that given direct correspondance with the company that S&W is not redesigning their pistols.

I thought political rants were for the political rant forum.

Mike Have a Pleasant Day! Spread some of that Christmas Cheer!

Maybe you can tell us some of the constructive positive things you have done for the second. Bashing gun owners and companys doesn't count.

-bevr
 
What have they done with the agreement? I don’t see them following any of the provisions in the agreement. How do you know they are NOT working to nullify the agreement? Is it because you did not get a call in person from “your source� If you can’t tell the source, then don’t even bring it up. Without any backing it is just talk. Hell, I talked with Gene Stoner once but that does not mean I knew all about his projects. It is 2003 and their handguns still accept high capacity magazines. That is proof that they are doing something about the agreement. In fact they are not following ANY of the provisions. Since the government is not suing them for breach of contract, the issue is dead. Do you think they should make some huge proclamation that they backed out of the deal? Do you know the leverage that would give the anti-gun lobby in their propaganda? Do you think that the media would give a fair and accurate portrayal of the event?

“A lot of people assume that simply because Smith & Wesson is under new ownership, American ownership, that all is love and peace and joy and happiness and harmony.â€

Well the same can be said about those that assume that they are not doing anything about it.

IF the assault weapons ban goes away, then I suspect they will sell high capacity mags for all their new models. If there is a new ban that is more restrictive, then most gun companies are probably preparing for possible new legislation that would further restrict magazine capacity including possible ban on new firearms accepting high capacity magazines. If you think it took them 4 years to figure out a way to make high capacity magazines not fit in their handguns, then you had better get better sources. It is safe to say that new guns will continue to fit high capacity magazines. If they had to redesign the magazines due to the design of the gun, that does not mean that they are trying to prohibit the use of high capacity magazines. If you boycott S&W, then you had better boycott Kimber and anyone alse that gets their parts from S&W. Maybe your source does not know that the new 1911 from S&W was not designed for high capacity magazines from the start!
 
"Well I would be willing to say that given direct correspondance with the company that S&W is not redesigning their pistols."


And as I noted in a previous post, Beaver, Smith & Wesson lied quite handily in 2000 when asked questions about an agreement with the governemnt only a month before the agreement was signed.

What does that tell you?


"Maybe you can tell us some of the constructive positive things you have done for the second."

Hey, that's quaint, a game of you show me yours I'll show you mine. Fresh off 4th grade playground?

Ok, I'll play.

For 3.5 years I was Associate Editor of American Rifleman magazine, from October 1990 to April 1994.

To date, I have given over $25,000 to pro-gun organizations and candidates.

I'm a Life Member of the National Rifle Association.

I've taught, at last count, 37 newbies how to handle firearms safely, to the point that approximately half of them are now NRA members, and more than just a few carry concealed handguns.

In fact, I have two more people lined up for just after the Holidays.

"Bashing gun owners and companys doesn't count."

Hey, you're right, Diane Feinstein says she owns a gun. We should lay off her next time she tries to ram through anti-gun legislation, right? Let me just fire off a letter of appreciation to her right now...

The sad fact is that most gun owners in this country simply don't care about their rights.

As the saying goes, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.




M58,

"But I have the agreement on paper at home. We have more pressing issues currently."

Good. Then there won't be any misunderstanding about the draconian measures that Smith & Wesson has agreed to fulfill once the government demands by the letter compliance with it.


"We have newer and more eminient threats."

Ah, yes. So let's just forget yesterday's threats. After all, they're old and no longer glamorous, right?

It doesn't matter that the threat hasn't been neutralized, it's just old and dusty.

Until it's not anymore.

Everyone has their own pet projects about which they are most vocal.

That does not, however, mean that that is that individual's ONLY project.

I talk about my involvement with this because it's what I choose to share you people here.
 
Smith and Wesson, SCHMith and Vesson who would buy a pistol requiring mags from them anyvay. They are a revolver company and have never made a semi-auto that was worth a damn. Just my opinion, YMMV. But really, who gives a rats ??? about their mags...
 
DrDremel,

As I have indicated, I was once Associate Editor of American Rifleman magazine.

I've kept more than just a few of my contacts inside the industry. Their names are not important to you or anyone else -- you wouldn't know them even if I explained in depth who they were.

You ask what has S&W done with the agreement.

The answer is let it lay dormant. It's dormant, but not dead.

You also ask how I know that S&W hasn't done anything to get out of the agreement. In all honesty, I don't. But given how badly the boycott hurt S&W, and the lingering resentment in some circles, a blandly worded press release would seem to be appropriate if S&W were actively working to be released from the agreement.

Yet, there's been nothing.

The former President of S&W (Bob Smith? I'm disremembering now) when directly asked about the status of the agreement about 18 months ago seemed surprised that anyone even remembers it. He could have issued comforting words then, but what he said made it very clear that S&W was simply shoving its corporate head in the sand on the issue, and doing nothing.

"If you think it took them 4 years to figure out a way to make high capacity magazines not fit in their handguns, then you had better get better sources."

Good lord. You really think that you can snap your fingers and rework the engineering drawings for a whole line of pistols that accept different styles of high capacity magazines?

And what's this 4 year deal?

It will be 4 years this March that the agreeent was signed.

S&W began reengineering efforts not long after that -- they're very likely at this point FINISHED with those efforts. The only thing that would be required to effect the changes now is a new President and Congress demanding strict compliance with the agreement.
 
but what he said made it very clear that S&W was simply shoving its corporate head in the sand on the issue, and doing nothing.
Click to expand...


Nobody is doing nothing about it,,,thats the key....

Assuming 4-5 mores years of doing nothing...can you say...laches?

Legal tricks are OK....

WildkeepinquietissometimesgoodAlaska
 
Mike,

S&W asked for my phone number after I asked them via email what the deali-Oh is. Should be interesting. They'll probably call me tomorrow as I didn't get a chance to reply to their mail after it was 2000 EDT today.

In the meantime, I agree with you that a company that would jump in bed with the enemies of RKBA should be dealt with in the same manner as dealing with an anti2A prez out of office.

But to drive Smith and Wesson out of business? That would be like handing the antis another victory? Kill one of the biggest and oldest firearm makers in the world. What a bragging right for the antis. Two evils I have to choose from. I think I chose the lesser by still supporting S&W.

I understand that the new owners of Smith have to pay something like 30mil in 10 years as part of the terms of their purchase? I would suspect that they wouldn't want any undue negative publicity (like reneging on the agreement) that would encourage a new round of harassment from the antis that will cost them money. I can't exhort Smith to take it like a man so to speak and die fighting. So they go down in history as morally upright but out of business?

I chose the lesser of two evils.
 
Nor shall ammunition magazines that are able to accept more than 10 rounds be sold by the manufacturer parties to this Agreement or their authorized dealers and distributors. See Part II.A.1.h, below."

Whoops, that's the entire point of this discussion now, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Interesting.

While many seem to get a break from their daily grind by dressing up as RKBA WarriorPerson online after hours, some of us are forced to confront this every day. (See, if the agreement was magically enforced tomorrow, most folks in this discussion would get to gripe about it in their breakrooms, while some of us would be reduced to dumpster-diving for food if we lived by it.)

Let me tell you something: the "boycott" by scattered individual consumers means little to nothing to a large corporation.

However, if S&W came to us, a dealer that orders many tens of thousands of dollars of their product per annum, and said "If you wish to continue to be a stocking S&W dealer, you must cease selling all high capacity magazines and guns that hold them," then which line do you think we'll stop carrying? S&W? Or Glock/Bushmaster/Armalite/Springfield/ParaOrd/et cetera/ad nauseum? (The answer, in case you were hanging in suspense, is "Sayonara, S&W!")

The dealer I was working at at the time of the agreement terminated a decades-long relationship with S&W over the goofy proposed regs in the agreement. The dealer I'm working with now, based on discussions with the same Secret Squirrel-type connections Mike referred to, has continued their association, contingent on the non-enforcement of the agreement. As long as the "agreement" is enforceable only on contingency of being a stocking S&W dealership, it is entirely non-enforceable.

I, personally, have absolutely had it with the chest-thumping and hair-pulling by network geeks, car salesmen and technical writers who have discovered the formula for RKBA purity on the back of a cereal box, when the only downside for them of any potential gun law is something new to gripe about around the water cooler. There are those of us whose careers depend on the RKBA. If you're a real RKBA crusader, then cut away. Tie your livelihood up in this fight. Then maybe you'll have a place telling me who I should and should not support in this fight, and how I should support or shun them. Until then, get off my frequency. :mad:
 
What a load of crap! Smith and Wesson will do what is best for them and a bunch of people with to much time on their hands posting BS on this forum isn't going to change anything. At least S&W is an American company, employing Americans. Buy what you want but if this idiot bashing of US gun companies continues there won't be any. Then how long do you think it will be before your polititions ban all handgun imports? Where will you get your guns then?
 
So what if S&W dies? We have a (relatively) free-market system; this ain't (yet) some statist, commie backwater we live in. If there's a demand for reasonably high-quality revolvers, someone will come along and make them, prob with S&W's old machinery and employees if they were to go under. BFD. Businesses go under all the time, only to have their assets bought and put back into production. Eastern Airlines is gone, but you can still fly anywhere they used to. Their planes were bought and repainted, and many of their pilots and other personnel were picked up as well. It happens all the time. Now, allowing private entities to infringe on our rights by making deals w/the gov't, that's the kind of thing that will harm the market's ability to meet demand, either thru (yet more) gov't interference w/free market competition, or by giving them the confidence to enact legislation further regulating the firearms industry. The reason SAAMI was founded, for example, was to keep the gov't out of settting standards for firearms and ammunition (thanks Cal Coolidge!). Why let them further in the door with these kinds of ridiculous "agreements"?

Is the point just to save the name "S&W"? Why? I don't get the emotional attachment. What connection do the companies with the rights to names like Springfield, Thompson, Auto Ordnance and Armalite, for example, have with the original manufacturers? Or any number of other firearms-related companies? Yet, people go on buying their stuff, many of them not knowing the difference, nor caring. The point isn't in saving the name.
 
Short version: Those whinning about S&W have no dog in the race.


Also, nothing S&W does would ever satisfy them.
Like the Glock haters.:neener:
 
S&W did sign the agreement. That the current administration doesn't enforce it is nice but that's not the same as it not being enforceable.

Has S&W designed a new pistol that will use a pre-ban mag??

Should your shop carry new S&W products? Sure if you want, just remember that one day it may be a choice that is made for you. S&W did this for an advantage over the over manufactures in the courts and for government contracts. If they are still in business when it is enforced, S&W may end up being all you'll have to sell.

Lawdog is right, if you are in a position to steer business away from S&W you should do so. I you want a S&W pistol, look to the used market.

Mike is right, this is a "sleeper cell" planted and waiting for the day it's needed.
 
I went back and read the agreement word for word, something I haven't done for a couple years.

It appears to me that this only affects "Parties to the agreement" and Authorized Distributors/Dealers. So far, these are the only ones that have signed it:

Manufacturer parties to this Agreement:
Smith & Wesson

Governmental parties to this Agreement:
Department of the Treasury
Department of Housing and Urban Development

State Parties to this Agreement:
State of New York
State of Connecticut

City and County Parties to this Agreement:
City of Atlanta, Georgia
City of Berkeley, California
City of Bridgeport, Connecticut
City of Camden, New Jersey
City of Detroit, Michigan
City of Gary, Indiana
City of Inglewood, California
City of Los Angeles, California
County of Miami-Dade, Florida
City of San Francisco, California
City of St. Louis, Missouri

According to the agreement, to be an Authorized Distributor/Dealer, you must follow the rules and regulations set forth in the agreement. If you are an Authorized Distributor, you can ONLY sell guns to an Authorized Dealer. Read that again, not just S&W, but any guns. That's where the control begins. It doesn't matter who signs the agreement. If a distributor does not choose to sell products from the "Manufacturer parties to this Agreement", then they are not bound by any of the Agreement's provisions. If a dealer chooses not to be an Authorized Dealer of products by "Manufacturer parties to this Agreement", then they too are not bound by any of the provisions. The problem occurs when a Dealer can not locate a non-participating distributor (Authorized Distributors of products by "Manufacturer parties to this Agreement"), since purchasing from an Authorized Distributor means you must be an Authorized Dealer (and all of the BS that goes along with that "title".

Text of that portion:

B. Authorized distributors - additional provision.

Authorized distributors must agree to sell the manufacturer`s products only to other authorized distributors or authorized dealers or directly to government purchasers,

C.Authorized dealers--additional provisions.

ln addition to the requirements in section II(A)(1), authorized dealers must agree:

1.Not to sell any of the manufacturers` products to any federal firearms licensee that is not an authorized distributor or authorized dealer of that manufacturer.

Distributors are the weak link here. If they go along with the Agreement, their customers must do so as well or find a new distributor. If distributors decide it's in their best interest not to follow the Agreement's provisions, I don't see how it will go anywhere (as it is written). Let those who want to be "Authorized Distributors/Dealers" sell to the govt. The rest can have our business.

We should remind dealers and distributors that we will not tolerate any business that complies with the Agreement. I have a feeling the dealer community already has said as much to distributors or will make their feelings known as soon as the Agreement is enforced for the first time. Contacting the distributor community and voicing our concerns will be more productive than beating each other about the head and shoulders over this.

Tamara, what kind of agreements/contracts do gunshops typically have with distributors? Can you simply cease doing business with one if you decide continuing a relationship is against your shop's best interests? Can a distributor say the same to a manufacturer? How much freedom is there in the supply chain?

Chris
 
It would take less than 3 months to redesign all their pistols to not accept current magazines. As an engineer I can tell you that from experience. I could do it myself in less than that working alone. An entirely new design takes less than a year starting from nothing.

Killing S&W helps no one. The only ones that would step in would be a foreign company. Taurus most likely. It is very likely that a new owner would buy S&W and not produce firearms but move to the other areas of S&W business. Like I said before, publicly announcing backing out of the agreement would only cost them more harrassment from the anti-gun crowd. Becoming the one company they try to bankrupt with lawsuits and such. This is more than just a bad business deal. There is some political consequences. The gun culture has shown manufacturers that giving in is not an option.
 
However, if S&W came to us, a dealer that orders many tens of thousands of dollars of their product per annum, and said "If you wish to continue to be a stocking S&W dealer, you must cease selling all high capacity magazines and guns that hold them," then which line do you think we'll stop carrying? S&W? Or Glock/Bushmaster/Armalite/Springfield/ParaOrd/et cetera/ad nauseum? (The answer, in case you were hanging in suspense, is "Sayonara, S&W!")
Click to expand...

This here seems to be the key to me ... and why I still haven't figured out how this can be anything more then S&W sticking one of their new X frames in their mouth and pulling the trigger. As it is now, when I walk into a gun shop the S&W auto-chucker section is pretty small (usualy a lot more tupperware laying around) and I find a lot of Ruger and Taurus wheel guns.

What percentage of Market Share does S&W have at this point (particularly in semi auto pistols)? I think the goons in the Klinton administration (who are socialists at heart and don't understand free market capitalism) thought they could use S&W's clout to control the market.

One good thing about the boycott (whether it continues or not) is that other gun companies didn't sign on as well ... and probably never will.

I do think its still a good idea for S&W to live under the cloud of a future possible boycott if they don't do something pro-active to get out of the agreement (based on my reading of it ... its not well written and I bet any sly lawyer could find ways out of it). Of course that will cost them time, money and legal hassles, so maybe S&W is just going to wait until they are forced to abide by it before they act (maybe by the next Clinton administration ... God forbid).
 
Any dealer can buy from any distribitor who is willing to sell to said dealer.

Tamara is right. IF S&W is forced to abide by the agreement then the distributors will have to decide if they want to sell S&W with all of the encumbered limitations or dump S&W and carry on as before.

The dealers will then make the same choice. Which I imagine will be a no brainer.

Of course at that time there will be all sorts of legal calisthenics peformed to delay enforcement. With the possibility of an injunction delaying the enforcement it could be business as usual for several years before it gets sorted out.


As for me, right now S&W makes nothing I want.
 
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