No more snail mail you can fax a FFL (official link)

[sturmruger]

I know this have been covered here a few times briefly, but I have to cover it again.

I am getting a little sick of all the people in this country that don't realize we can fax Federal Firearm Licenses now. It was actually sent out in a BATF newsletter back in August of 2005 but it seems like the news is getting out a little slow. I think about 90% of the dealers I have dealt with didn't have clue about the new rule and are unwilling to look into it.

Here is what this means for residents in most states. If you sell a gun to a resident of another state you will need to send the gun to a dealer in the other state. What you will need is a faxed copy of the dealer license AND THATS IT!! I would recomend looking up their FFL # on the BATF website so that you are sure they are really a dealer. Everyone needs to start hassling their dealers so that we can get all them on the same page. Snail mailing a FFL with blue ink is a thing of the past. PLease do you part to help educate anyone you come across.

Thanks

TEXT OF THE BATF August Newsletter

CERTIFIED FAXED COPIES OF LICENSES

Section 27 CFR 478.94 requires the following for sales or deliveries of firearms between licensees:“A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary:...”This section of the regulations requires a licensee to verify another licensee’s status prior to making sales or deliveries to such licensee. Please be advised that ATF will now recognize a faxed copy of a Federal firearms license as an acceptable alternative form of verification.ATF strongly suggests that FFLs utilize the FFLeZ Check system and verify the authenticity of the transferee’s license prior to shipping or disposing of a firearm(s) to another licensee.In addition, verification and certification of a license is not considered valid unless a legible copy of the transferee’s license clearly identifies the name, address, license number and expiration date of the license. Acceptance of blurred or illegible copies of a transferee’s license may constitute noncompliance with regulations.Finally, since all fax machines and settings differ, FFLs may need to fax with a fax resolution setting of fine, super fine, or photo to ensure the fax copy of the license is legible.

Here are some links that you can use to verify any information you heard about shipping firearms.

BATF FIREARM FAQ
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

ONLINE EZ CHECK
https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck

August 2005 Newsletter
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/0805fflnewsletter.pdf



Rant off.....

 

[Soybomb]

Good luck, I've had alot of FFLs that refuse to fax their licenses, and alot of dealers that won't accept a faxed license without calling their buddy at the atf, or whatever even when I send them a link right off the atf server. I kind understand their paranoia I guess, but it definately still sucks for the buyer.

 

[hotpig]

Most faxes will not print legible FFL licenses numbers. It just shows up as a long black box.This will not catch on until the ATF changes the format of the licenses.

 

[Majic]

If you are shipping yourself (depending on your shipper) you don't need the actual FFL. Just proof that you are shipping to a vlid FFL holder. The online check of FFL numbers will give you that. So the buyer just needs to give the seller his dealer's FFL number.

 

[TrapdoorBilly]

Most faxes will not print legible FFL licenses numbers. It just shows up as a long black box.This will not catch on until the ATF changes the format of the licenses.

B I N G O, but as you can see, it seems many folks don't realise that. But since their business or livelyhood is not on the line all they can do is P & M over a few days delay. Oh well, life is a bitch sometimes

 

[TrapdoorBilly]

The online check of FFL numbers will give you that. So the buyer just needs to give the seller his dealer's FFL number.

WRONG Seller needs to have a readable copy of FFL on file. ATF&E does expect you to show them if requested during an inspection.

 

[Old Fuff]

Buyers and sellers should understand that the BATF&E has a well earned reputation for nit-picking and harassing dealers during inspections (they have to show that they're doing their job, etc.) and dealers respond by being very careful. So long as the old way works they won't change until they are sure the new way won't get them into trouble with some $#&& agent trying to make a score. This is not right, but it is the way things work in the real world.

 

[EOD Guy]

WRONG Seller needs to have a readable copy of FFL on file. ATF&E does expect you to show them if requested during an inspection.

Sorry, but you are wrong. There is no requirement for an unlicensed person to have a copy of the receiving dealer's license. That is only required in a transfer between licensees. Even then, there is no legal requirement for a dealer to keep the copy once he has verified it.

 

[Futuristic]

You Are Correct, Sir!

Sorry, but you are wrong. There is no requirement for an unlicensed person to have a copy of the receiving dealer's license. That is only required in a transfer between licensees.

And, many FFLs will not send a copy of their FFL to a non-licensee. I'm not sure what mischief they expect to be perpetrated but they must have a reason. In any case, go check http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm for the definitive answers. (Mostly. There are still a couple of errors and omissions in the FAQs but for the most part they are accurate.)

Futuristic

P.S. As always, check State and Local laws, some of those are whacked!

 

[waterhouse]

As has been posted, the FFL number is usually not legible coming through a fax. I've played with it a little (sending faxes between two machines) and you have to put the resolution up as high as it will go from the sending end, or really enlarge the original before faxing, or the numbers won't show up.

Every FFL I have talked to lately knows about the rule, but some don't accept faxes because they can't read them.

I call the ATF on a near weekly basis to try to see if there has been any progress in allowing us to EMAIL the FFLs, since I have a scanned, beautifully legible copy ready to go in digital format (just like a fax). They have so far said "we're considering it." If you want the ultimate in convenience, please call the ATF and ask that they OK emailing. If they get a few thousand calls they might "consider it" more.

The concept of the fax is over 150 years old, and the ATF approved its use in 2005. Hopefully they are a little quicker with email.

 

[waterhouse]

Even then, there is no legal requirement for a dealer to keep the copy once he has verified it.

You are correct that it is not a legal requirement. However, the ATF pamphlet "How to pass an ATF inspection with Flying Colors," has a section on storage of records.

It reads:

Are your business records, including old A&D books, completed 4473s, invoices and packing slips covering firearms shipments, stored in chronological order or other ATF approved method.

When I was given this sheet, the ATF agent underlined this section and wrote in "FFLs." Apparently paperwork is the most common problem when they do an inspection, and he said that I should staple my outgoing invoice to the FFL where the gun was being shipped and keep them all in order.

Again, not a legal requirement, but I don't want to be standing there going "uh, I threw that peice of paper away" if they ask for it.

 

[sturmruger]

You know what you might do is Fax the image from your computer. Most computers with a modem are also a fax machine. This would allow you to send a high res version straight to a fac machine.

 

[EOD Guy]

You are correct that it is not a legal requirement. However, the ATF pamphlet "How to pass an ATF inspection with Flying Colors," has a section on storage of records.

It reads:


When I was given this sheet, the ATF agent underlined this section and wrote in "FFLs." Apparently paperwork is the most common problem when they do an inspection, and he said that I should staple my outgoing invoice to the FFL where the gun was being shipped and keep them all in order.

Again, not a legal requirement, but I don't want to be standing there going "uh, I threw that peice of paper away" if they ask for it.

I agree. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's prudent.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Sorry, but you are wrong. There is no requirement for an unlicensed person to have a copy of the receiving dealer's license. That is only required in a transfer between licensees. Even then, there is no legal requirement for a dealer to keep the copy once he has verified it.

Umm, sorry but it appears that YOU are wrong.

From the newsletter article cited above:

This section of the regulations requires a licensee to verify another licensee’s status prior to making sales or deliveries to such licensee. Please be advised that ATF will now recognize a faxed copy of a Federal firearms license as an acceptable alternative form of verification.ATF strongly suggests that FFLs utilize the FFLeZ Check system and verify the authenticity of the transferee’s license prior to shipping or disposing of a firearm(s) to another licensee.In addition, verification and certification of a license is not considered valid unless a legible copy of the transferee’s license clearly identifies the name, address, license number and expiration date of the license. Acceptance of blurred or illegible copies of a transferee’s license may constitute noncompliance with regulations.

Further, since a fax cannot indicate if the signature is original, this pretty much requires that the receiving FFL has to go on-line to verify the license. Some do that anyway, but many rely on the original signature. They don't want the extra hassle and liability of having to document that they did the on-line verification.

You need to remember that the regulations calls for the FFL to verify to HIS satisfaction the authenticity of the license being sent to him. I don't think you're going to win a lot of friends trying to tell a business owner how YOU think HE needs to run his business and protect his license. Accepting a faxed FFL is optional, not mandatory. If you find one that will, count yourself lucky. I think it'll be a long while before they constitute a majority.

 

[hotpig]

I doubt the fax thing will ever become "standard" with most of us FFL holders. I do not use my fax enough to justify throwing it away and buying a new more expensive unit just to do transfers a little faster. It would take about two and a half years worth of transfer fees to buy a fancy fax.

Due to the waiting period, the delay of snail mail exchanging of FFL is minimal on handguns. If someone wants a gun from me and they are in a real big hurry to get it. Enough that I get a bad vibe or I feel like they are pressuring me. I give them the boot and tell them not to come back.

 

[EOD Guy]

Umm, sorry but it appears that YOU are wrong.

From the newsletter article cited above:

Further, since a fax cannot indicate if the signature is original, this pretty much requires that the receiving FFL has to go on-line to verify the license. Some do that anyway, but many rely on the original signature. They don't want the extra hassle and liability of having to document that they did the on-line verification.

You need to remember that the regulations calls for the FFL to verify to HIS satisfaction the authenticity of the license being sent to him. I don't think you're going to win a lot of friends trying to tell a business owner how YOU think HE needs to run his business and protect his license. Accepting a faxed FFL is optional, not mandatory. If you find one that will, count yourself lucky. I think it'll be a long while before they constitute a majority.

No, I'm correct, although I think you may have misunderstood me.

I'll say it again, the only time a shipper need a copy of the recipients FFL is in a transfer between licensees. Even then, a legible faxed copy is sufficient. I agree that a dealer shipping to another dealer still has the option to require an original signature on a hard copy of the FFL. My point is that there is no requirement for an unlicensed individual to obtain a copy of any kind of an FFL. See 27CFR §478.94. That is the only place in the regulation you will see a reference to obtaining a certified copy of an FFL.

 

[poppy]

My FFL guys here in Ohio are Emailing their copies to sellers for me. poppy

 

[Aguila Blanca]

My FFL guys here in Ohio are Emailing their copies to sellers for me. poppy

Interesting.

In the course of a previous thread on this topic, someone called the BATFE local office to ask about e-mailing scanned copies, and the answer was (essentially) "We said 'fax' is now allowed, and that's all we said."

Your guys are taking a risk.

 

[solareclipse]

you could fax them since a long time...

 

[dman4384]

Interesting.

In the course of a previous thread on this topic, someone called the BATFE local office to ask about e-mailing scanned copies, and the answer was (essentially) "We said 'fax' is now allowed, and that's all we said."

Your guys are taking a risk.

OF course nowadays you can email faxes.

I do it all the time with www.efax.com

 

[jrhines]

I asked the question awhile back -
"Can you email your FFL?
I asked this question of the local ATF lawyer. The answer was yes, you can. As long as your intent was to send a true copy of your ffl with an origional signature (I think that intent is implied by your sending anything), the faxed or emailed attachment will do the job.
As a ffl, I have been having trouble getting the run of the mill fax to transmit my ffl as a readable document. I can scan it and transmit it as a tiff file that is nearly pristine.
You might call your ATF office and see if they give the same answer, in any case, I thought you would like to know."

And couldn't get any one to check with their ATF office. There is no way for the average receiver of a fax to tell if it started out as an email of a scanned document or was fed through a fax machine. I use an online fax service to both send & receive my FFL documents and to send and receive state police NICS documents. My inbound faxes arrive as PDF attachments to emails, how they started out is to me, mox nix. I think that the important point was addressed by the ATF lawyer when she sdia that it is the senders intent that is the issue. If the intention is that you convey a true copy of your FFL so the recipent can belive he is within the law in sending you a gun, then all is as it should be. If the intent is to convey a bogus document to enable the sender to act outside the law, that is all together a different matter. A non-FFL holder ( a non-licensee) can send me any non-NFA weapon he/she so desires. If pressed, I will FAX them a copy of my FFL. Usually this allows that person to demonstrate to UPS or FedEx that they are sending the firearm to a licensee. A FFL holder (a licensee) will get a copy, (FAX or snail mail) as a matter of course, CFA part 178.94 requires it.