No-one discussing 92-year old woman here?

[Lucky]

Woman, 92, dies in shootout with police

POSTED: 8:23 a.m. EST, November 22, 2006

ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- Narcotics officers were justified in returning fire on a 92-year-old woman they shot to death as they tried to serve a warrant at her house, a police official said.

Neighbors and relatives said it was a case of mistaken identity. But police said the woman, identified as Kathryn Johnston, was the only resident in the house at the time and had lived there for about 17 years.

Assistant Chief Alan Dreher said the officers had a legal warrant and "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door. He said they were justified in shooting once they were fired upon.

As the plainclothes Atlanta police officers approached the house about 7 p.m. Monday, a woman inside started shooting, striking each of them, said Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman.

One was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder. The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said.

Sarah Dozier, identified as a niece of the woman, told WAGA-TV that there were never any drugs at the house.

"My aunt was in good health. I'm sure she panicked when they kicked that door down," Dozier said. "There was no reason they had to go in there and shoot her down like a dog."

The Rev. Markel Hutchins, a civil rights leader, said Johnston's family deserves an apology.

"Of the police brutality cases we've had, this is the most egregious because of the woman's age," Hutchins said.

Hutchins said he would try to meet with Atlanta Police Chief Richard Pennington and would also meet with lawyers.

There are guys in the Canadian forums who are siding with the officers:banghead: Is there any hope for them or are they too-far gone?

"she gunned down THREE cops!!!! They fired back AFTER she started dropping Police officers. I'd hardly say she was "executed" - THEY were the ones exercising self defense."

 

[crazed_ss]

About 8 threads on this subject have been locked since we dont have all the details. I was going to open another thread about this incident, but take it in another direction.. maybe I can use this one before it gets locked.

Do incidents like this make you rethink you choice for a HD gun..? I keep my shotgun ready for HD, but Im thinking about switching to the SKS now. If the badguys are wearing body armor, you might get them with 9mm or buckshot, but it wont have the intended affect due to their armor.

EDIT: http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/p...n=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Please don't instantly start accusing the police of wrongdoing.
There are not yet enough facts. Police say they were fired on, the niece says they kicked the woman's door in, without the niece saying if she was a witness. Neighbors blunt statements that it was just mistaken identity without additional information isn't that credible either, IMO.

Yes, she was 92 but if someone starts shooting at me, I'm not going to ask them how old they are. More facts from other eyewitnesses are needed.

There have been other people in the past very advanced in years that have gotten caught using illegal drugs. Yes on the surface this looks fishy, but there still are not enough facts for me to make any judgement.

Also, I see nothing in the above news item about police kicking in the door. It says they were fired upon and struck as they approached the house. That is not kicking in the door. The only item describing kicking in the door is from a neighbor who doesn't give any additional information.

 

[DKSuddeth]

too many people are still under the impression that law enforcement make no mistakes.

 

[FTF]

LEO's are always right. To speak otherwise or debate based on current events and news reports is pure fiction.

 

[SoCalShooter]

I still wonder what her involvement is in the drugs. According to the police they announced themselves and then knocked the door in. Sounds pretty straight forward. They returned fire after being fired upon is so far the scenario. Unfortunate she had to die but if she started shooting first after the police announced themselves then it is her fault for escalating the situation. More will come to light I am sure but right now without more facts we can only speculate and postulate as to what really happened. Given the immediate information the police were justified in the shooting I believe.

 

[FTF]

Officials say the warrant was a “No Knock” warrant – meaning that the officers did not knock before forcing open the door, but they did announce themselves.

Source. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/10374909/detail.html

If this subject keeps getting locked, then I assume that every pro-gun thread without a supreme court ruling should be locked as well.

IT IS NEWS. IT IS CURRENT. STOP LOCKING IT. Just because LEO's are potentially at fault doesn't mean it's immeidately sent to APS or locked... it's a gun-related topic with relevant, verifiable sources. Better sources in fact than a lot of stuff posted here. You can claim all day long you are waiting on whatever, but the point is, it's still been over a day, the police authorities have made their statments and THAT is what we are talking about.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Thanks for that link. That provides me with more evidence, looks from that like the poor woman was just defending herself. Probably hard of hearing, couldn't hear them say they were police. Yeah, the evidence from that story looks a little more damning.

 

[Lucky]

Sorry then, I looked at titles and didn't see anything, my mistake.

crazed_ss I don't think you're any better off with a rifle. For one thing the neighbours across the street would suffer any misses. For another thing you're still going to die if you shoot back. Best offence might be a good defence

As long as you don't live in a place passing Anti-Fortification Laws Anti-Fortification Laws you might be better to get a door that will sustain enough damage to give you time to retreat to a safe-room. He who runs away lives to fight another day, sort of thing. I'm not advocating a submissive attitude to a police-state, but I'm suggesting a way to survive a violent assault, so you can fight later (in court $$$)

 

[SoCalShooter]

Time will tell, but once they knock the door in they do announce themselves as LE. The other variables we dont have is, where was she in the house? where were the LE's when they shot her?

 

[tellner]

Whether it was a good shoot on her part or a good shoot on theirs only time will tell. And it will do so in a muted distorted voice after the press, her family and the PD spin machine get through with it.

But one thing is for sure. She didn't die in the straw. She shot three armed, trained men in battle (of a sort) at the age of 92. She goes to Valhalla to party down with guys young enough to her great grandchildren. The Allfather loves valor

 

[Firehand]

Part of the problem is that the PD gave out two different stories: in one she started shooting after they broke in the door, in the other she started shooting 'as they approached the house'. And from the different stories I've read, there were no uniformed officers involved, all in plainclothes. Been a bunch of cases reported lately of robbers/burglars kicking in doors and yelling 'Police!' as they come in; with no uniforms or notice, you don't know who just smashed in the door.

There's a lot of unknowns in this. The knowns are enough to give serious doubts as to the actions of the officers, they 'why' as well as the 'how'.

Also, they've already given one of the standard phrases: "The officers were following department guidelines". Which has all too often meant "Doesn't matter what happened, no charges against the officers".

 

[Orthonym]

Amen, Tellner!

Oh, and may I also say (paraphrasing Mark Twain), the very idea of policemen is un-American, it is un-English, it is completely irregular; It is, in fact, FRENCH!

(See the objections to Bobby Peel's invention of English Policemen)

 

[22-rimfire]

There are long threads over at the Firing Line site.

She did not have any children and the police had on their vests with "Police" written on the front. Somethings seems really wrong about this whole thing and I suspect it is not the police that are in the wrong. How on earth does a 92 year old woman open up the second that the police bust in her door. There isn't much time for her to react.

 

[antarti]

OK, so until there's an investigation, or a lot of the confusion is cleared up, I can either decide to think that:

A) a 92 year old woman, at home minding her business, is some kind of drug pusher and gun wielding, LEO killing maniac just itching for the police to step on her property so she can ambush them and gun them down... she's been waiting 92 years for the chance apparently

or

B) a bunch of plainclothes LEOs decided to serve a no-knock and got (less than) what they deserved, and killed a 92 year old grandma on advice from a drug pusher they were probably cutting a deal with and gave them bad info

I think I'll take "A" any day of the week.

 

[Preacherman]

1. We don't know the facts - only sketchy news reports, and claims by both the cops and her family. The details haven't yet come out.

2. This subject seems to be attracting the cop-haters and cop-bashers en masse. We won't have that on THR.

3. If the police acted wrongly, we all hope they'll be taken to task (and hopefully to court) over it. However, needless ranting when we simply don't know the facts doesn't help anyone.

The fact that all previous threads on this subject have been locked should tell you something. Please don't start any more.