No Phony 'Cease-Fires' With Terrorism

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FRIZ

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The Washington Post
Friday, May 30, 2003; Page A23

No Phony 'Cease-Fires' With Terrorism
By Charles Krauthammer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56130-2003May29.html

On May 23, just a week ago, the official newspaper of the supposedly reformed Palestinian Authority carried a front-page picture of the latest suicide bomber dressed in suicide-bomber regalia. It then referred to the place where she did her murdering as "occupied Afula." The town of Afula is in Israel's Galilee. It is not occupied. It is not in the West Bank or Gaza. It is within Israel. If Afula is occupied, then Tel Aviv is occupied, Haifa is occupied and Israel's very existence is a crime.

This bit of incitement and delegitimization was, to my knowledge, reported in not a single American newspaper. It is simply too routine. It is the everyday stuff of Palestinian newspapers and television, schoolbooks and sermons. Appearing, however, after the Palestinians had presumably adopted new leadership committed to (1) ending terrorism and (2) accepting Israel, this outrage caught the eye of Robert Satloff of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Satloff brought it to American attention noting that "it is difficult to imagine a more chilling message to Israelis who doubt Palestinian commitment to a two-state solution."

President Bush, engaging his personal prestige in the Arab-Israeli peace process, is headed to Middle East summits in Egypt and Jordan. He is in danger, however, of heading straight back to Oslo, that eight-year exercise in delusion and self-deception that led to the bloodiest fighting between Israelis and Palestinians in 50 years. Dennis Ross, chief U.S. negotiator through the Oslo process, has admitted that one of the great failings of Oslo was the willful refusal of both Americans and Israelis hungry for peace to confront Palestinian violations of the agreements, most notably the incitement to kill Jews and the constant propaganda delegitimizing Israel's right to exist.

There was some hope for change when Mahmoud Abbas became Palestinian prime minister and spoke of ending the violence and accepting Israel. But as of now, Abbas has done nothing. And just this week Yasser Arafat demonstrated who is the real boss of the Palestinians when he deliberately forced a postponement of a summit meeting between Abbas and Ariel Sharon. Until Abbas is in control, the president's visit will constitute a reward for nothing more than cosmetic reform.

The only logic of Bush's visit is that perhaps a photo op with the president of the United States will elevate Abbas and give him the authority to do what he has to do. But the premise of the president's Middle East policy, announced last year on June 24, was that the United States would help the Palestinians achieve statehood in response to real Palestinian reform, not just words.

Moreover, the "road map" for peace, which the Palestinians say they have accepted, explicitly demands of the Palestinian leadership "sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure."

Abbas is talking very differently. His objective, he says, is to persuade the suicide bombing specialists -- Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades -- to accept a temporary cease-fire. This would be a disaster for any prospect of peace. It means that the terrorists who have been hunted down by Israel ever since it finally decided to strike back after last year's Passover massacre would receive immediate sanctuary: time to rebuild, regroup, rearm and prepare for the next, more deadly orgy of violence.

If what Abbas means by peace is that the terrorists just lay low for a while, then it is not a peace of the brave but a peace of the knave. If that is what President Bush accepts as "peace," he not only will have betrayed Israel, he will have doomed American policy, because he will have ratified a prescription for continued and much more bloody violence.

The requirements of a successful summit are clear. Abbas has to take real steps to curb terror. Let him begin in just one city. Israel will withdraw, but only if Abbas asserts authority and actually goes after the terrorists in that town. No revolving-door arrests. No temporary cease-fire. Nothing less than "sustained . . . operations aimed at . . . dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure."

And Abbas has to do something even simpler. Stop official Palestinian media from extolling suicide bombers. Stop official Palestinian media from referring to Israel as occupied territory. Talk about peace -- in Arabic, not just in English -- the way Anwar Sadat did 25 years ago. Israel reciprocated then; it will reciprocate now. Without such elemental steps by Abbas, however, no peace is possible -- and the new Bush peace initiative will amount to nothing more than Oslo redux.
 
Oslo was an unmitigated disaster...

...for Israel and for US middle-east policy.

It was embraced by left-wing Israelis who (still) refuse to face reality -- and by Bill Clinton in his desire for a place in history as the peace-maker of the middle-east, regardless of its unreality and of its cost in blood. The US State Dept. full of Arabists who hate Israel, were only too glad to assist, as they are now with the "Road Map". And we mustn't forget the UN and the Europeans, who then as NOW, support anything that hurts Israel and the United States.

The new Palestinian Prime-Minister is under the thumb of Arafat. He was,anyway, instrumental in the Munich massacre of Israeli athletes in the '72 Olympics and many other atrocities and he hasn't changed a bit since.

And the "cease-fire" being considered by Hamas and the other terrorist organizations is called a "hudna" in Arabic. That translates as a "tactical cease-fire" for the purpose of re-building their strength and biding their time. Their ultimate goal is the annihilation of Israel, the Jews and the (once) Christian West.

Relying on the Wahabi (sp) Muslims of Arab dictatorships, especially Saudi Arabia, as our "allies" is close to psychosis. These Islamicists are bent on world-domination -- destruction of Western Civilization. The left-liberals among us are their willing (if MAYBE unwitting) accomplices.


Implacable enemies like these use "negotiation" only as a tactic. Only military defeat can solve this crisis. Like we did with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

The "road-map" is based on the same bankrupt/failed ideas as Oslo was. President Bush MUST somehow be convinced to abandon this insanity in favor of dealing with the middle-east as he is doing with Afghanistan and Iraq.




Matis
 
I heard....

In the war between the Jews and the Arabs:

If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be no more war.

If the Jews lay down their arms, there will be no more Jews.

I think that's about right and there ain;t nuttin nobody can do about it.
 
Bush will not fall into the Oslo trap. He doesn't repeat mistakes. He makes his own.

Bush has a well defined modus operandi of pushiing an initiative that is clearly doomed to failure. I offer the utter stupidity of the dance we performed with the UN prior to Iraq II. He kept up the dance inspite of overwhelming evidence the UN would not act. Bush's insistence on completing seemngly unproductive initiatives is merely a way of removing any objections to future, more drastic actions.

If I was Arafat and his Iranian handlers I would be quite alarmed to see Bush put on a full court press right now because it is portending more drastic action down the road. Bush fully understands how Iran is the driver of Palestinian terrorism. Bush also understands nothing will happen until Arafat is dead. Arafat will not quite and he is unable to surrender power.
 
Theres a real simple way to determine who really wants peace.

Palestinian textbooks have math problems like "if 100 pounds of c4 can kill 20 Jews, how many jews can 120 pounds kill?"

Show me an Israeli school like that.

To value your children's lives so little that you send them off to go blow themselves up to destroy infidels and so you can get paid by the Terrorist organizatons is simly disgusting, despicable, and a one way ticket to hell.

And what's this "If we didn't support Israel the arabs wouldn't hate us!" That's complete BS. They hate us because they are in general medieval bastards who don't beleive in allowing others to be different. They are going to hate us unless we live like them. Does anyone remember that they provided petroleum to the Nazis?

:cuss: 'em.

(sorry.. I'm quite passionate about this issue)
 
They are going to hate us unless we live like them. Does anyone remember that they provided petroleum to the Nazis?

er...... which Arab state did this? There was a short-lived pro-German regime in Iraq, but most if not all of the Middle East was under British control throughout the period.

Besides, collaboration with the Nazi's was hardly unique:

http://www.edwinblack.com/media/index.shtml

also with regards to the textbooks:

http://www.fmep.org/analysis/brown_abstract_study_on_palestinian_textbooks.html
 
The "road-map" is based on the same bankrupt/failed ideas as Oslo was. President Bush MUST somehow be convinced to abandon this insanity in favor of dealing with the middle-east as he is doing with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Are you suggesting the US should invade Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza....... and occupy?!! :rolleyes:

Does anyone remember that they provided petroleum to the Nazis?

No. Do YOU?!!

From what I've read, the Nazis got most of their crude oil from the Rumanian Ploesti oil fields.

They also produced gasoline from coal. They got this technology from Standard Oil when they entered into an agreement with German Corporation I. G. Farben and were given the patent process for producing synthetic gasoline from hydrogenation and iso-octane.

Don
 
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Quote:
_________________________________________________
The "road-map" is based on the same bankrupt/failed ideas as Oslo was. President Bush MUST somehow be convinced to abandon this insanity in favor of dealing with the middle-east as he is doing with Afghanistan and Iraq.


Are you suggesting the US should invade Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza....... and occupy?!!


No, Don Qatlj -- I'm suggesting that he stop restraining the Israelis and allow them to do what is necessary to resolve the issue. They can do in their neighborhood what Bush did in Afghanistan and in Iraq. There will be no "peace" until they do.


Matis
 
Waitone,

Waitone said:
___________________________________________________
Bush has a well defined modus operandi of pushiing an initiative that is clearly doomed to failure. I offer the utter stupidity of the dance we performed with the UN prior to Iraq II. He kept up the dance inspite of overwhelming evidence the UN would not act. Bush's insistence on completing seemngly unproductive initiatives is merely a way of removing any objections to future, more drastic actions
___________________________________________________


You may well be right, Waitone. I sure hope you are.



Matis
 
I'm suggesting that he stop restraining the Israelis and allow them to do what is necessary to resolve the issue.

I didn't know we WERE restraining the Israelis.

Haven't the Israelis already been free to do what they thought would resolve the issue?

And it hasn't worked ............ has it??!!

I think the Israelis should give Bush's "Road Map" a chance! All this effort.... Afghanistan/Iraq was made on THEIR behalf by the US! Anything less would be EXTREMELY ungrateful!

Don
 
Haven't the Israelis already been free to do what they thought would resolve the issue?

And it worked. At least the amount of terrorist attacks fell, statistically speaking.:banghead:


Tell me, please, how have I benefitted from the war in Iraq? By having the pleasure of being forced to carry a gas mask every day?
 
DanQatlj

DonQatlj said:
___________________________________________________

I didn't know we WERE restraining the Israelis.

Haven't the Israelis already been free to do what they thought would resolve the issue?

And it hasn't worked ............ has it??!!
___________________________________________________


If you didn't know that the US was restraining the Israelis you are sadly underinformed. The Bush administration made it clear to the Sharon government that ALL American support would be "re-evaluated" unless they buckled under and accepted the "road Map" (to Auschwitz II, G-d forbid).

This is sort of analagous to our gun-laws restricting the good guys right to self defense while leaving the predators free to do their thing. The Palestinians are oppressed by the Israelis like our bad guys are oppressed by us.


Actually, Bush himself is MUCH better in his support for Israel than his predecesors (sp?) and after the Passover massacre last year, he let up and allowed the Israelis to take the war to the enemy.

The result was a dramatic reduction of suicde bombings, infiltrator shootings, etc. When Israel went on the offensive, she was very effective in dealing with these murdering terrorists (or are they "freedom fighters" to you? Take the trouble to learn the history!).

"The world is governed by the aggressive use of force." Not by endless talk and negotiations that only put off the inevitable. And especially "negotiations" that include parties who have no stake (like survival) other than their political games playing. When their dishonest policies fail, as they must -- what do they lose? They can simply begin the game again. But the Jews bleed and die.


When the Israelis do what is necessary it DOES work very effectively. They bent over backwards and begged the Arabs to avoid the wars in 1948, '56, '67, '73 and now, the Oslo war. They even offered the murdering and lying Arafat 97% of the land he wanted. This land is Israel -- she took it back by winning the 1967 "six-day war" forced on her by her lovely neighbors.

I think Israel SHOULD "give back" her land, but not before we "give bacK the Western United States to Mexico and the rest of our country to England.

Each time the Arabs attacked, they thought they'd win and push the Jews into the sea. I have video tapes of Arab army training exercises where they chant about the dogs lapping up Jewish blood from the gutters.

Although the Israelis begged to avoid each war, when they had to fight they beat the crap out of the Arabs.

If all the Arabs want is the conquered land back (it was part of Israel since biblical times), then why did they attack in 1967 in the first place -- and lose their control over it?


Eventually, after another few terrorist atrocities, the West will wake up to the true nature of the war we face against the Islamist extremsts. They want to defeat and rule us. Our will to survive will finally emerge and we will go all out in dealing with them.


And what the Arabs really want in the middle-east is the annihilation of Israel and the Western values she represents and embodies.


Israel is OUR outpost of civilization in the middle-east, surrounded by medieval dictatorhips bent on her destruction.

When Israel finally goes all-out in dealing with their threat, they will be fighting for us, as well.



Matis
 
Tell me, please, how have I benefitted from the war in Iraq? By having the pleasure of being forced to carry a gas mask every day?

MicroBalrog, you have a rather odd way of expressing your apprecation to the US.

But if you haven't noticed.... the US has invaded and occupied your enemy, Iraq (at considerable expense in American lives and money). You can now put your gas mask away and go about your daily business........ thanks to the US.

Sorry you were inconvenienced by the gas mask drills, but not a single Israeli life was lost in our invasion of Iraq. And Israel received a very large pay check for staying out of the conflict so it wouldn't set the whole region on fire. You wouldn't want that to happen...... would you?


The Bush administration made it clear to the Sharon government that ALL American support would be "re-evaluated" unless they buckled under and accepted the "road Map" (to Auschwitz II, G-d forbid).

You mean the Bush administration puts conditions on Israel's "entitlements"? They ask for co-operation in return for the billions we give Israel? Well, imagine that! ;)

I think it would be in Israel's best interests to put an honest effort into implementing the road map peace plan. It's the last chance they're likely to get.

I know the Likudniks in Israel (and here) are going to try to sabotage the plan.

Hamas will try to do the same. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas doesn't have a series of suicide bombings planned for the President's visit next week. And Sharon will blame it on Yassar Arafat. But think about it.... Do you think Arafat can exercise control over Hamas from his bombed out compound in Ramallah?

Don
 
Look, I agree with the road map, for heaven's sake.

Oh, and yeah, Arafat's compound is not "Bombed-out". He has all the power possible, and is, what is most important, respected by the Palestinian people. You might know that last time we went into his compound we found proof of his direct assistance to these terrorist groups. Oh, and yeah, I ain't no Likudnik, I voted Shinui.
 
Microbalrog said:
___________________________________________________

Look, I agree with the road map, for heaven's sake.
and:
___________________________________________________
...Oh, and yeah, I ain't no Likudnik, I voted Shinui.
___________________________________________________

You voted Shinui! Poor Microbalrog -- that explains your confusion. Keep trying to "make friends" with the Arabs who hate your guts and want only your death and that of all Israel.

That's why this atheist (me) sides almost always with the religious. My fellow atheists are mostly left-liberal and living in a dream. And their dream makes for a nightmare reality.

Or they are libertarian dreamers who believe that everyone else values reason and logic as they do.

I find that the religious, whether Christian or Jewish, seem the only ones (paradoxically?) rooted in reality about human nature and survival and what it takes to make a civil and free society..

Am Israel Chai (The Jewish People Live!)

... is not an ideal the Shinui policies will lead to. Perhaps they could adopt as a slogan, "The Jewish People Suicide" (G-d forbid, as my religious brothers would say).




DonQatlj said:
__________________________________________________
You mean the Bush administration puts conditions on Israel's "entitlements"? They ask for co-operation in return for the billions we give Israel? Well, imagine that!

I think it would be in Israel's best interests to put an honest effort into implementing the road map peace plan. It's the last chance they're likely to get
___________________________________________________

So, DonQatlj, you reverse your position about the US pressuring Israel?


Yes, the US supports Israel with money and weapons. That's what a world power does, out of self-interest, with one of her outposts.

Co-operation is one thing, DonQatlj -- suicide is quite another.

Do you prefer the 15 billion we're wasting for AIDS in Africa?

The road map is NOT a peace plan. It's the Oslo nonsense with a new name, put forth for the same reasons -- political games at the cost of Jewish blood and gambling with Israeli survival.

And it is NOT Israel's last chance. It will either be stopped or it will fail and Israel will, probably at great cost in blood, go on. Sooner or later, Israel will throw off constraints and concern with the opinion of a world that mostly hates Jews, anyway, and do what she must do.

As will we, once we awaken from our slumber, in defense of our way of life and very survival.


Matis
 
Yes, MiroBalrog....

MicorBalrog said:
___________________________________________________

You are confusing Shinui with someone - they supported Sharon.
___________________________________________________

...they supported Sharon.

But they fight against the religious who strive to preserve the Jewish character of Israel.

I read a study about Jews in the US. The author chose 5 groups of 200 Jews who lived 100 years ago. He divided them into groups: secular Jews, Reform Jews, Conservative Jews, Orthodox Jews and Chassidim.

Then he traced their progeny down to today (actually around 1995 or so) to see how many were still Jewish.

The results speak for themselves:

Of the 200 secular, only about 2 or 3 were still Jewish.

Of the Reform, around 5-6.

Of the Conservative, about 7-8.

Of the 200 Orthodox around 800 progeny were Jewish.

But of the Chassidim, the original 200 became 5000!

The rest are now goyim (gentiles), MicroBalrog!


I live with a good gentile woman and, as they say, "some of my best friends are...."

But there are only 15 million of us in the entire world, MicroBalrog. All the rest are gentiles. Don't you want your children to know who they are? Is it to be "Peace at any cost", MicroBalrog?

By fighting the religious who strive to preserve the Shabbat (Sabbath) laws, the laws governing conversion, kashruth, etc. Shinui is fighting to erase the Jewish character of Israel.

And if Israel loses her Jewish character and becomes just another country -- and an Arab one at that -- why should Jews or anyone else care about her survival any more than any other country?

Vote Likud, MicrBalrog.


And a happy Shavuouth to you,


Matis
 
So, DonQatlj, you reverse your position about the US pressuring Israel?

Matis, you are twisting my words a bit there.

I said we are not RESTRAINING the Israelis from taking any actions they choose.

If you think the US is exerting unfair pressure on Israel by threatening to cut off their allowance....... too bad!

Besides....... there's an easy solution to THAT problem. Israel simply stops taking foreign aid and military assistance from the US!

So you see Israel is still free to handle the situation as it pleases, but it may have to do so on its own.

Matis, I don't know exactly what you would like the Israelis to do. But killing or expelling all Arabs in the occupied territories is not a solution that would bring peace.

Don
 
Matic my friend, do you know this concept called "Civil rights"?
Israel is a "Jewish and DEMOCRATIC state"
That means that people have the right to marry without a rabbi, eat pork, drive on Sabbath, and be burnt after death instead of buried, period.
 
DonQatlj...

Quote:
__________________________________________________
Matis, I don't know exactly what you would like the Israelis to do. But killing or expelling all Arabs in the occupied territories is not a solution that would bring peace
____________________________________________________

No, I do not want the Israelis to kill the Arabs. That's a Muslim solution, not a Jewish one.

But I do believe that transferring the Arabs to their loving fellow Arabs' countries must be done. There are groups who advocate BUYING their land -- paying them for it so they can have a stake in their new country.

The Jews never enjoyed that kind of treatment when they ran for their lives from the Arab countries during and after the 1948 war.

Or in the ever-recurring wholesale expulsions of Jews from country after country in Euope. Jordan expelled 10's of thousands of Palestinians, killing many in the process. So did other Arab countries. Not a murmer from the world. Only when Jews struggle for survival are the "highest" standards applied.

Transfer of populations who cannot live together has worked before. Ever hear of Pakistan?



MicroBalrog said:
____________________________________________________

Matic my friend, do you know this concept called "Civil rights"?
Israel is a "Jewish and DEMOCRATIC state"
____________________________________________________

Yep, MicroBalrog, -- heard about that cencept.

But Israel cannot subordinate her Jewish character to civil-rights and democracy and also survive. I didn't creae that reality. It just IS that way.

It is possible to have both, but not to elevate civil-rights to an idol.

The irony is that Israel is the ONLY democratic state in the middle-east, Her 1 million Arab citizens enjoy rights that Arabs have in NO Arab country. There are Arab MKs who spout hatred of Israel from the floor of the Knesset, for G-ds sake! How stupid can the Israelis get? Can't they spell treason?

They are surrounded by Arabs who lust for Israel's annihilation and Israelis are beginning to realize that her internal Arabs, the citizen Arabs -- they also hate her and plot actively and co-operate and support the terrorist murders. And the Arabs, whether citizens or not, have more children per family than do Jews. They will take over Israel by demographics, alone (Tamara, down girl! easy girl!) if Israel takes democracy as her G-d.

A pure democracy is impossible, anywhere. And It takes a shared culture to bind a nation together. Israel will remain Jewish -- or she won't remain at all.

If genuflecting at the alter of democracy (unbecoming to a Shinui atheist, no?) leads to that outcome, will you still put it above everything else? Democracy above Jewish survival? Are you suicidal, MicroBalrog? Is that how we survived, against all odds, for 3800 years?



You forgot to wish me a happy Shavuouth, MicrBalrog.

All the best,

Matis (Mattityahu)
 
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