North American Union to Replace USA?

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Taxing the consumer to support the ship owners.
Rather, it is charging a fee to foreign manufacturers for access to our markets. Internal competition is sufficient to keep domestic prices down and quality up, so long as government doesn't interfere with same, i.e., adopts a hands off policy.
 
Within America, that works great, and is consistent with traditional conservative economics, but once you step outside of America, you have to think of defending our nations sources of prosperity (assuming you place your priorities there), i.e., our own industries.

We don't do that by rewarding sloth and inefficiency.

Take a recent example -- Bush, against conservative tradition -- put in place tariffs on steel. American industry was weakened, not strengthened.

Yes, a few thousand steelworkers kept their jobs -- but a lot of American companies, suddenly forced to buy expensive steel, found themselves unable to compete in the international market and went under.



There are also national security implications to consider. If we stop producing steel altogether, for example, what would happen if we found ourselves involved in a war, and the free flow of steel into our nation suddenly stopped? We'd be at the mercy of our suppliers.

Again, the last attempt at protective tariffs for steel hurt American industry far more than it helped.

Now, if you want to REALLY find something that hurts -- look at the energy situation. The Congress with it's "windfall profits tax" in the '70s drove most exploration and development overseas. "Environmentalism" prevented us from building new refineries, from drilling off our coasts, from drilling in the ANWR, and we have not been able to build a new nuclear power plant in 30 years.

France, for cat's sake, is 78% nuclear. The United States, which invented nuclear power, is only 15%.
 
Alexander Hamilton wrote: 'Not only the wealth, but the independence and security of a country, appear to be materially connected with the prosperity of manufactures. Every nation...ought to endeavor to posses within itself all the essentials of a national supply. These comprise the means of subsistence, habitation, clothing and defense. ' America's political independence, Hamilton was saying, could not survive without economic independence. "

Source: Where The Right Went Wrong, by Pat Buchanan, p.153 Sep 1, 2004

Today, we let Japan and China to run up a combined annual trade surplus of $120 billion, blithely allowing them open access to our markets while we pay up to 100% tariffs for entry into theirs. By equalizing tariffs so that imported goods carry the same tax as American-made products, we can end the exploitation of US workers, and fund flatter taxes for families, fairer competition for business, and renewed economic liberty for all Americans.

Source: www.GoPatGo.org/ “Issues” Jun 5, 1999

Ross Perot and I stood up again against NAFTA. We stood up against GATT. We stood up against the World Trade Organization. We stood up against the $50 billion bailout of Mexico.
People ask, “Pat, why are you against NAFTA?” I said, “There are lots of reasons I’m against NAFTA. You do not force Americans making ten bucks an hour to compete with Mexicans who work for a dollar an hour.”

One year later, Mexico devalued the peso. American trade surplus disappeared. We now have a $15 billion trade deficit with Mexico, which means 300,000 American jobs were lost this year. Illegal immigration is soaring.

We are required to pay $50 billion to the government of Mexico. For whose benefit was that? It was not for the benefit of working Americans. It was for the benefit of investment bankers on Wall Street.

Source: United We Stand America Conference, p.318-19 Aug 12, 1995
 
Rather, it is charging a fee to foreign manufacturers for access to our markets.

And you really think they ate that fee? They didn't pass it on to the consumer?

The ultimate law in economics is, "The Consumer pays. The Consumer always pays. No one but the Consumer pays."
 
Alexander Hamilton wrote: 'Not only the wealth, but the independence and security of a country, appear to be materially connected with the prosperity of manufactures. Every nation...ought to endeavor to posses within itself all the essentials of a national supply. These comprise the means of subsistence, habitation, clothing and defense. ' America's political independence, Hamilton was saying, could not survive without economic independence. "

Alexander Hamilton should have read Adam Smith. Hamilton was a hell of a soldier, a fairly good financier and a poor economist.

Source: Where The Right Went Wrong, by Pat Buchanan, p.153 Sep 1, 2004

Wow!!:D
 
QUOTE
"I guess you're calling many of the Founders socialists, then, because they certainly favored tariffs. In fact, it says in the Federalist Papers that tariffs were to be the primary means of generating revenues for running the Federal Government."
END QUOTE

wow, did that train ever come off the tracks...:uhoh:

And, gentlemen. very good discussion, but Hawkeye, your use of Wikipedia as a source...am I mistaken, or isn't Wikipedia written by the online submitter? Ultimate in revisionist history?
 
Imports from other countries should be subject to tariffs, to keep the volume of imports much, much lower than that of exports. Exports to other countries should largely be unregulated, to promote American goods.
The math for this idea just will not work.

You want to export (sell) at lot more than you import (buy). The amount of exports that equal imports is easy to do, even on a barter system. But the excess exports are a problem. What do you propose to receive in exchange for your excess exports - IOUs? If you don't plan to just hold and admire the IOUs, sooner or later you have to import more than you export just to use the IOUs.

Selective tariffs on specific goods do protect local industry, but at a cost. If Phetro needs to sell widgets for $5 to make a profit, but Vern can make a profit selling them for $4, a tariff of more than $1 on Vern's widgets will ensure Phetro stays in business. As a consumer, I would not be thrilled about paying more for widgets just to ensure that Phetro stayed in business.
 
Two points. NAFTA/CAFTA/WTO and in the future FTAA have nothing to do with "free trade" but instead have everything to do with "managed trade." FTAA is taking proposals to site the organizations HQ. The organization anticipates employing 24,000 employees. Free trade is the pairing of a willing buyer and will seller. 24,000 bureaucrats are not needed if FTAA is indeed free trade.

Now back to the original path of the thread. I posted this article elsewhere. It is a seminal piece placed in an obscure paper half way around the earth from the US. The author is Richard Haass formerly a policy aide to Colin Powell then deputy director of planning in the Bush state department. He took a new gig mid-2003 as president of the CFR. One year later "North American Community" was published. About one year after that Bush, Vinney, and Martin met in Waco as set the process in motion.


Here is the Joint Statement the three leaders issue at the meeting conclusion.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050323-2.html

Google up "Security and Prosperity Partnership". Better yet, go to www.whitehouse.gov and search for the phrase. While in the area of the Whitehouse drop by www.spp.gov, The website used to promote the initiative.

Haass' article is found here
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2006/02/21/2003294021/print
Published on TaipeiTimes
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2006/02/21/2003294021

State sovereignty must be altered in globalized era
In the age of globalization, states should give up some sovereignty to world bodies in order to protect their own interests

By Richard Haass

Tuesday, Feb 21, 2006,Page 9

For 350 years, sovereignty -- the notion that states are the central actors on the world stage and that governments are essentially free to do what they want within their own territory but not within the territory of other states -- has provided the organizing principle of international relations. The time has come to rethink this notion.

The world's 190-plus states now co-exist with a larger number of powerful non-sovereign and at least partly (and often largely) independent actors, ranging from corporations to non-governmental organizations (NGOs), from terrorist groups to drug cartels, from regional and global institutions to banks and private equity funds. The sovereign state is influenced by them (for better and for worse) as much as it is able to influence them. The near monopoly of power once enjoyed by sovereign entities is being eroded.

As a result, new mechanisms are needed for regional and global governance that include actors other than states. This is not to argue that Microsoft, Amnesty International, or Goldman Sachs be given seats in the UN General Assembly, but it does mean including representatives of such organizations in regional and global deliberations when they have the capacity to affect whether and how regional and global challenges are met.

Less is more

Moreover, states must be prepared to cede some sovereignty to world bodies if the international system is to function. This is already taking place in the trade realm. Governments agree to accept the rulings of the WTO because on balance they benefit from an international trading order even if a particular decision requires that they alter a practice that is their sovereign right to carry out.

Some governments are prepared to give up elements of sovereignty to address the threat of global climate change. Under one such arrangement, the Kyoto Protocol, which runs through 2012, signatories agree to cap specific emissions. What is needed now is a successor arrangement in which a larger number of governments, including the US, China, and India, accept emissions limits or adopt common standards because they recognize that they would be worse off if no country did.

All of this suggests that sovereignty must be redefined if states are to cope with globalization. At its core, globalization entails the increasing volume, velocity, and importance of flows -- within and across borders -- of people, ideas, greenhouse gases, goods, dollars, drugs, viruses, e-mails, weapons and a good deal else, challenging one of sovereignty's fundamental principles: the ability to control what crosses borders in either direction. Sovereign states increasingly measure their vulnerability not to one another, but to forces beyond their control.

Globalization thus implies that sovereignty is not only becoming weaker in reality, but that it needs to become weaker. States would be wise to weaken sovereignty in order to protect themselves, because they cannot insulate themselves from what goes on elsewhere. Sovereignty is no longer a sanctuary.

This was demonstrated by the American and world reaction to terrorism. Afghanistan's Taliban government, which provided access and support to al-Qaeda, was removed from power. Similarly, the US' preventive war against an Iraq that ignored the UN and was thought to possess weapons of mass destruction showed that sovereignty no longer provides absolute protection.

Imagine how the world would react if some government were known to be planning to use or transfer a nuclear device or had already done so. Many would argue -- correctly -- that sovereignty provides no protection for that state.

Necessity may also lead to reducing or even eliminating sovereignty when a government, whether from a lack of capacity or conscious policy, is unable to provide for the basic needs of its citizens. This reflects not simply scruples, but a view that state failure and genocide can lead to destabilizing refugee flows and create openings for terrorists to take root.

The NATO intervention in Kosovo was an example where a number of governments chose to violate the sovereignty of another government (Serbia) to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide. By contrast, the mass killing in Rwanda a decade ago and now in Darfur, Sudan, demonstrate the high price of judging sovereignty to be supreme and thus doing little to prevent the slaughter of innocents.

Conditions needed

Our notion of sovereignty must therefore be conditional, even contractual, rather than absolute. If a state fails to live up to its side of the bargain by sponsoring terrorism, either transferring or using weapons of mass destruction, or conducting genocide, then it forfeits the normal benefits of sovereignty and opens itself up to attack, removal or occupation.

The diplomatic challenge for this era is to gain widespread support for principles of state conduct and a procedure for determining remedies when these principles are violated.

The goal should be to redefine sovereignty for the era of globalization, to find a balance between a world of fully sovereign states and an international system of either world government or anarchy.

The basic idea of sovereignty, which still provides a useful constraint on violence between states, needs to be preserved. But the concept needs to be adapted to a world in which the main challenges to order come from what global forces do to states and what governments do to their citizens rather than from what states do to one another.

Richard Haass is president of the Council on Foreign Relations and the author of The Opportunity: America's Moment to Alter History's Course.

Copyright: Project Syndicate
I've concluded Bush missed his calling. Instead of being a baseball team owner or the executive of a large organziation, he should have been a magician. His skills rival that of David Copperfield and other professional misdirection artists. While the country is boiling over illegal immigration Bush is quietly and steadily taking steps to abrogate national sovereignty. I used to consider conspiracy advocates as lazy thinkers. I refused to believe any of the nonsense right up until the appearance of "North American Community" which was followed by several AP articles and Whitehouse press releases. I don't need conspiracy theories when I've got the AP reports and Whitehouse press releases.
 
Bartholomew Roberts
This is just basic evolution and it will happen regardless of who is driving it based on competition and economic necessity.
Actually, it is a calculated agenda. Romano Prodi the Italian Commissioner publicly chided other EU governments and their timidity over political union a couple of years back saying, in effect;

"We all knew the EU was planned as a political union from the beginning".

Of course when it first saw public light in the late 1950s, political leaders were quick to "assure" their countrymen that the "Common Market" as it was called was "strictly about trade". ;)

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Vern Humphrey
So who are we talking about, the Carbonari, the Illuminatti, or the Free Masons?
Rather than worrying about what to call them - isn't it more objective to see what has been in action and analyse that?

Why do we have a trillion-dollar debt and paying all that interest to a private bank? How much money has the American public purse been fleeced in interest in total from the beginning of the "Federal" Reserve Bank?

What is the reserve to back an empty dollar? Every piece of privately owned land and property in America? What else can it be - we do not make anything, produce anything, in an industrial capacity that could make good on a huge trillion-dollar debt.

How much more money is our gov borrowing from this private bank on a daily basis? What is going to happen as the Chinese start really dumping U.S. dollars, the Swedes - and all the other countries now switching to the Euro?

Why has there never been an audit of the "Federal" Reserve Bank? The "Federal" Reserve Bank has been bleeding us dry, and it was no secret that this was what they would do from the start.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Minutemen Villified

Can't have nationality impeding the plan for the NAU now can we?

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3858360

Other drivers crept along, their windows rolled down, and waved - with one finger.

Upset by the Utah Minuteman Project's protest, Troy C. Gottfredson showed up with a flattened Corona beer box with his own message scrawled on it: "Welcome President Fox."

"They [the Minutemen] want them [undocumented workers] lynched. They want them dragged out," said Gottfredson, who saw the Minutemen protest on TV and rushed to the Governor's Mansion to stage his own protest - against the Minutemen.

"There's just no positive; it's angry," he said. "It's unfortunate. It's just too angry for me."

<snip>

Vicki Smith, who is not a Minuteman but supports the group's cause, said her family is fighting wars in two countries.

While her son is disassembling explosives in Ramadi, Iraq, Smith says she is battling illegal immigration on her home soil. Undocumented workers, she said, are a drain on social services and American taxpayers.

"When my ancestors immigrated here they didn't do it on the backs of other Americans. There was no welfare or bilingual education," she said. "We need to be defending the border, and we need to be doing it faster, harder and long before now."


Welcome to the NWO, Vicki, where American soldiers "protect" the Middle
East, but we allow our once sovereign borders to be brought down in order to
form the North American Union.

Vicki, the so-called leaders of BOTH parties have completely betrayed your
trust and the loyalty of your son. It was hard for me to accept at first, too,
but you have to be willing to take the red pill.....

Vern wrote: So who are we talking about, the Carbonari, the Illuminatti, or the Free Masons?
<and>
You are mistaken. True conservatives believe in free trade.

Vern, how about the members of the Russell Trust, aka the Bonesmen, who
have put key people in positions of power and influence in both business
and government? You know, the same group that ran a president in both
parties in 2004?

Free trade? HA! As a small business owner I can tell you the only people
in this country who get to operate under so-called "free trade" are the
multinational corporations. Every other law that gets pushed through and
actually enforced in this country is designed to shackle small business and
complete the collectivization of industry just like it has done with
agriculture in this country.
 
nationalism

What advances the core values of America is good trade. I don't care if it's "free" or "fair," the question is what does it do, long-term, to advance American values and strength.

Economics is sublimated warfare, whether we like it or not. Right now I think this "war" is going badly--and, it seems, by design. I think there's plenty of evidence as to where that design has come from, who's behind it, and what its objective is.

As for tariffs, my understanding is that America had high tariffs on foreign goods from the Civil War to 1928. If memory serves that was a period of considerable sustained growth for this nation.

The Haass article should be required reading. Thanks, Waitone.
 
Quote from Vern Humphrey below:

"First of all, it's not just Virginia that has laser and scannable toll stickers. Theyr'e all over -- every state has them. And has had them for decades.

If that would cause the sky to fall, it would have fallen years ago.

This kinds of reminds me of the people who find out meat is made of dead animals and assume it's a government coverup -- because they just heard of it"


Oh gee Vern. You have convinced me now. Due to Virginia and other states in addition, having toll booth scanners, and the sky has not fallen, it is perfectly fine for the Texas Department of Transportation to enter into agreement with a foreign entity to build a corridor, from the Mexican Border, all the way through the entire state of Texas, while granting imminent domain authority to a foreign entity, cutting off landowners from their adjacent property, and condemning others without fair remuneration, while REQUIRING (not giving an option) scanners on automobiles in violation of the U.S. Constitution, and GRANTING ITSELF THE RIGHT TO OPEN BUSINESS INTERESTS WITHIN THIS "CORRIDOR" TO PROVIDE FOOD, FUEL, AND ENTERTAINMENT FACILITIES, is perfectly okay, all based upon the fact that the state of Virginia has a toll road using a toll scanning option, from one portion of a county, into another portion of a county. Oh yeah, that is comparable. I stand corrected.

You have won the entire argument without even addressing the question I raised. Congratulations. I guess you are right, and I am simply a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy nut. Thanks for putting me in my place with such demonstrable logic. :eek:
 
I've concluded Bush missed his calling. Instead of being a baseball team owner or the executive of a large organziation, he should have been a magician.

Well, he has not managed to make himself disappear. So far anyway. But he's doing a good job of making America disappear.

I think you're wrong about the baseball team. That IS Bush's idea of how things should be run: monopoly capitalism, featuring an elite, supported by government subsidies, hiring cronies, and relying on the slavish support of proletarians who know their place.
 
Other drivers crept along, their windows rolled down, and waved - with one finger.

Upset by the Utah Minuteman Project's protest, Troy C. Gottfredson showed up with a flattened Corona beer box with his own message scrawled on it: "Welcome President Fox."

"They [the Minutemen] want them [undocumented workers] lynched. They want them dragged out," said Gottfredson, who saw the Minutemen protest on TV and rushed to the Governor's Mansion to stage his own protest - against the Minutemen.

"There's just no positive; it's angry," he said. "It's unfortunate. It's just too angry for me."

<snip>

Oh boo hoo hoo! My heart bleeds. The fact that miscreants like this call themselves "men" blows my mind. He should be deported right along with the illegals, especially since he's so fond of the idiot socialist Fox--and they can all campaign against anger in Mexico.

Vicki Smith, who is not a Minuteman but supports the group's cause, said her family is fighting wars in two countries.

While her son is disassembling explosives in Ramadi, Iraq, Smith says she is battling illegal immigration on her home soil. Undocumented workers, she said, are a drain on social services and American taxpayers.

"When my ancestors immigrated here they didn't do it on the backs of other Americans. There was no welfare or bilingual education," she said. "We need to be defending the border, and we need to be doing it faster, harder and long before now."

Now there's some common sense. It serves to temper the idiocy of the feminized leftist male quoted above.

Oh gee Vern. You have convinced me now. Due to Virginia and other states in addition, having toll booth scanners, and the sky has not fallen, it is perfectly fine for the Texas Department of Transportation to enter into agreement with a foreign entity to build a corridor, from the Mexican Border, all the way through the entire state of Texas, while granting imminent domain authority to a foreign entity, cutting off landowners from their adjacent property, and condemning others without fair remuneration, while REQUIRING (not giving an option) scanners on automobiles in violation of the U.S. Constitution, and GRANTING ITSELF THE RIGHT TO OPEN BUSINESS INTERESTS WITHIN THIS "CORRIDOR" TO PROVIDE FOOD, FUEL, AND ENTERTAINMENT FACILITIES, is perfectly okay, all based upon the fact that the state of Virginia has a toll road using a toll scanning option, from one portion of a county, into another portion of a county. Oh yeah, that is comparable. I stand corrected.

You have won the entire argument without even addressing the question I raised. Congratulations. I guess you are right, and I am simply a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy nut. Thanks for putting me in my place with such demonstrable logic.

You noticed that too, huh? I guess it applies to this entire discussion also. Well folks, let's just pack it up and go home--we've lost this argument. NAFTA really is free trade, the Rs in Congress know what's best, "free trade" means "unrestricted foreign trade detrimental to the American economy," foreign garbage goods that break after three months are better than lifetime-durable American stuff that costs just a bit more, and we are all idiots and conspriacy theorists for thinking otherwise.
 
I think true conservatives believe in fair trade just as much, if not more than, free trade.

So how does free trade differ from fair trade?

I want to buy a widget. I look for people who sell them, and we agree on a price. That's fair and free.

Then the government steps in and says, "Wait a minute!! You can't buy a widget from him, and you have to pay twice as much."

That's un free and un fair.
 
So how does free trade differ from fair trade?

I want to buy a widget. I look for people who sell them, and we agree on a price. That's fair and free.

If the guy you're buying it from lives in China, you have deported American money. You have strengthened the Chinese economy, and weakened our own by a like amount. That is about as fair as an election in Chicago, and leaves none of us free in the long run.
Then the government steps in and says, "Wait a minute!! You can't buy a widget from him, and you have to pay twice as much."

Thank God someone is concerned enough about America to undermine the greedy ambitions of those people who would love nothing more than to sell our very nation out from under us so they could save a few dollars for themselves. Unfortunately, the government isn't doing that now, and that's why the American dollar is so weak...and weakening further.
 
I want to buy a widget. I look for people who sell them, and we agree on a price. That's fair and free.

Then the government steps in and says, "Wait a minute!! You can't buy a widget from him, and you have to pay twice as much."
You're ignoring all kinds of factors, here. One of which is that our government places heavy and costly burdens on domestic manufacturers that manufacturers in China, for example, do not have to deal with. It is an uneven playing field from the start. It would be like the Yankees playing the Red Sox, but the Red Sox batters get twenty strikes and twenty outs each inning, while the Yankees had to play by the standard rules. You cannot have fair trade with other nations, which is why you need tariffs to even the playing field. We do not control factors in other countries, so we must compensate or lose our middle-class-supporting industries to the third world. Unless you are happy with the idea of eliminating our middle class.

Now, free markets are the only way to go in a society where the rules are even across the board. This is the case both from a practical standpoint, and from a liberty standpoint. That's why traditional conservatism has always been opposed to government interference with the American free market. Its called capitalism.
 
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I think our fearless leaders should be more concerned what is good for the USA, rather than what is fair or what is good for the UN or the world. The collectivist globalist thinking would otherwise indicate that we have to impoverish ourselves to elevate the Turd World. You first, Mr Soros!

It is the same "compassionate" crap the delinquent aviator is trying to sell us on the immigration issue. Isn't it sinister how many similarities one can find?
 
The Real Hawkeye said:
...our government places heavy and costly burdens on domestic manufacturers that manufacturers in China, for example, do not have to deal with. It is an uneven playing field from the start.
+1.

Let's say you own a small manufacturing company located in the U.S. According to the government,

- You must pay a minimum wage
- You must meet all OSHA regulations
- You must collect taxes
- You must pay worker's compensation
- You must abide by a dizzying array of tax rules
- You must meet all EPA regulations
- You must meet all Department of Labor regulations
- You must meet all building code regulations
- You must meet all fire code regulations
- You must meet all regulations listed in the Americans with Disabilities Act
- Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

And then, without skipping a beat, the government turns around and says:

"Oh, and by the way... you must compete with a Chinese factory that does not have to pay a minimum wage, does not have to meet OSHA regulations, does not have to collect taxes, does not have pay worker's compensation, does not have to abide by a dizzying array of tax rules, does not need to meet any environmental regulations, does not have to meet any labor regulations, does not have any building codes, does not have any fire codes, and does not have to abide by a "Disability Act." Good luck, and have a nice day."

Pretty neat, huh? :mad:

Even if you paid your workers nothing, you still would not be able to compete with the Chinese factory.

I'm not saying we should do away with the EPA or whatever; hey, I like a clean environment as much as the next guy. What I am saying is that there needs to be a level playing field. And this is where Congress comes in... we should attach a tariff on goods that - listen carefully - would equal the amount the product would be worth if the Chinese factory did have to abide by all the regulations we have to abide by.

Let me repeat: we should attach a tariff on goods that would equal the amount that the product would be worth if the Chinese factory did have to abide by all the regulations we have to abide by.
 
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