NOT A TROLL - Serious Question

[txblackout]

And yet all violence, including gun violence, has decreased since the 1960s.


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/mu...rticle/2577709

What *has* increased is media obsession with banning the most popular guns. But violence is near record lows.

One rebuttal point that antis are not aware of is that the percent of gun deaths in murders has increased.

While murders and violence in general has decreased, gun violence has decreased less. For example, gun murders went from around 65% in 1980 to 72% in 2005 of all murders.

 

[Pushrod]

One rebuttal point that antis are not aware of is that the percent of gun deaths in murders has increased.

While murders and violence in general has decreased, gun violence has decreased less. For example, gun murders went from around 65% in 1980 to 72% in 2005 of all murders.

The 2014 FBI crime report states that the percentage of murders committed with firearms decreased 1.6% between 2013 - 2014.
It helps to use the latest data instead of numbers over 10 years old.

 

[txblackout]

The 2014 FBI crime report states that the percentage of murders committed with firearms decreased 1.6% between 2013 - 2014.
It helps to use the latest data instead of numbers over 10 years old.

the number is constantly fluctuating, you can only tell what the trend is with the standard deviation. Im wondering if these are from the same dataset or not. Anyway here are numbers 2004 to 2010 from the UN, Ill have to go look at the other data to see if it actually was ever 73%

66.0 67.9 67.8 67.9 67.0 66.9 67.5

 

[BSA1]

Second, I feel the need to restate my question to clarify exactly what it was that I was asking. Most of you got the gist, but reading back I see that I may have been a little unclear. My question, fully stated is...

Why, when America has the highest (or very near to it) rate of civilian firearm ownership in the world, do we see so many more mass shootings/shootings where several people are killed than other countries? Isn't the high rate of firearm ownership supposed to make us safer?

These questions have been answered very well many times in this thread. The premise of both of your questions are flawed.

Take the time to reread the many excellent responses.

 

[tipoc]

Isn't the high rate of firearm ownership supposed to make us safer?

No it's not. If you have a gun or guns in your home or on your person (at a given moment) it allows you the possibility of defending yourself and others, against a number of threats. But in no way against all threats in all situations.

Neither does my owning a gun make you safer. In the same manner my owning a gun does not make you less safe.

Ask the question in the reverse..."Isn't the high rate of firearm ownership supposed to make us less safe?" That's what the antis ask and assume. They assume that access to firearms equals more violence, but correlation is not causation. In the same way access to more firearms doesn't automatically make "us", that is the mass of people, automatically safer from random crime or terrorist attacks. It may make us more able to potentially protect ourselves as individuals but only if we are armed and ready at the time of need.

Having access to firearms can't take the place of dealing with root causes of violence in society just as doing away with guns can't make the brutality disappear.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

What about gun accidents as a cause of death and injury?

Those have been on the decline for decades. The figures below are from 2013 and tally the leading causes of accidental death in the U.S. per 100,000 persons. They come from the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS).

While the number of privately owned firearms has risen annually, the annual number of fatal firearm accidents has declined by 95% since 1904.

Comparing firearm accident rates (fatalities per 100,000) to other accident rates:

1. Motor vehicle accidents 11.4
2. Poisoning 10.7
3. Falls 8.4
4. Suffocation & Choking 2.0
5. Drowning 1.2
6. Fires & Burns .9
7. Medical “Misadventures” .7
8. Environmental factors .5
9. Bicycles & Tricycles .26
10. Firearms .20
Data Source: National Center for Health Statistics

So in recent years the figures have declined. More people die of drowning and bicycle/tricycle accidents in the U.S. than by accidental or unintended shootings. Yet by press accounts and to the antis the death rate by accidental shootings is dramatically out of control.

See table 18:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

From the same report cited above, table 18 from 2013

The columns read as: Total Number, rate per 100,000 persons in the population, and age adjusted rate.

Firearm (*U01.4,W32-W34,X72-X74,X93-X95,Y22-Y24,Y35.0)
33,636 10.6 10.4
Unintentional (W32-W34) 505 0.2 0.2
Suicide (X72-X74) 21,175 6.7 6.4
Homicide (*U01.4,X93-X95) 11,208 3.5 3.6
Undetermined (Y22-Y24) 281 0.1 0.1
Legal intervention/war (Y35.0) 467 0.1 0.2

Of the total figure of 33,636 firearm deaths in the U.S. (10.6 deaths per 100,000), 21,175 (6.7 per 100,000) were from suicide. 11,208 were from homicide (3.5 persons per 100,000).

Mental heath programs and counseling readily available to all would and could cut deeply into the suicide figure. Programs to fight and diminish drug addiction (a massive problem in the U.S. and one politicians avoid talking like the plague) and alcoholism would cut into both suicide and homicide numbers.

If we look at total number of suicides in the U.S. by all methods it comes to 41,149 more than the figure for total firearm deaths combined. At 13.0 per 100,000 much more than the 3.5 per 100,000 rate from homicides by firearm or the 10.6 per 100,000 deaths from all firearms combined.

Yet there is no national campaign to address suicide. The suicide rate among veterans is a national disgrace and has been for over a decade and goes unaddressed.

In the U.S. we do have a system for handling the mentally and emotionally distressed and troubled...it's the county and state lock-ups. Jail, where they don't get treated, a horror show without end.

So my point is that they are deeply cynical about their violence and deaths. They are anxious to spend money restricting democratic rights and raise fines and taxes on firearms, attack the 2nd amendment, and slow to spend on helping build hospitals, clinics, jobs and programs that might actually help curb violence and misery and provide hope.

tipoc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If we separate out suicide from homicide, as you have done, it makes "gun violence" seem like a minor problem, at best. And the politicians don't like that!!

 

[tipoc]

I don't think any of us believe it's a minor problem Vern, I know you and I don't. But when we look at the actual figures of what's what we can see that it's not how politicians paint it.

You can see that banning "hi-cap" magazines, "assault weapons", raising the fines and penalties for having unlocked guns in your house, making it impossible for citizens and legal residents who are on the "no flight" list to buy a firearm (when they have committed no crime), etc., etc. are ineffective at fighting crime and homicides (or terror attacks) but do chip away at our rights.

The figures I showed are the feds as of 2013. They include mass shootings etc.

tipoc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I don't think any of us believe it's a minor problem Vern, I know you and I don't. But when we look at the actual figures of what's what we can see that it's not how politicians paint it.

My point is, homicide by firearms are quite rare compared other forms of death -- and when you consider the total population of the US, it really IS a minor problem.

But if we consider it a serious problem, a little study shows it's CULTURE that causes the problem. A Chicago Police study found that in 2012, about 2/3s of all homicides in that city were committed by Blacks, and about 1/3 were committed by Hispanics. Whites accounted for less than 4%. Now that tells us something -- we can reduce homicides by 90% IF we are willing to work on changing the violent Black and Hispanic cultures.

But to say that is not "Politically Correct*"

* A French phrase meaning "Anal Retentive."

 

[barnbwt]

"While murders and violence in general has decreased, gun violence has decreased less. For example, gun murders went from around 65% in 1980 to 72% in 2005 of all murders."
Well duh, this is because guns are cheaper, more available, and more effective than they've ever been. Meanwhile, medicine has gotten better at treating all kinds of wounds including gunshots, but guns remain the most efficient means of inflicting wounds capable of causing immediate incapacitation & death. It's not 'data' or an 'argument,' so much as it is the entire point of using these tools for defense/offense in the first place. If someone you're debating attempts to use the practical effectiveness of firearms as an argument against firearms, they are not debating in good faith, or you are not doing a good job of describing the reason for choosing these tools over alternatives in framing the discussion. I do have to wonder, with that stat, just what all the hordes of gangbangers were killing each other with during the '90's when crime was several times higher & Democrats were ramming through their AWB in response, though. Methinks I smell a rat in that stat (somewhere)

Too often a discussion about guns & gun control in America is allowed to turn into a faux-losophical debate on the merits of violence vs. non-violence ("who wants to live in a world where blah, blah, blah" is your signal). Keep them on point and honest about discussing whether the most effective tool available should or should not be acceptable for a person to possess/wield/etc. according to our system of laws, today. You can't win the violence/non-violence argument; it's been going on since Vishnu was a lad

TCB

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Too often a discussion about guns & gun control in America is allowed to turn into a faux-losophical debate on the merits of violence vs. non-violence ("who wants to live in a world where blah, blah, blah" is your signal).

That's a form of begging the question -- a logical error in which your opponent tries to get you to accept a major part of his argument so he can prove it to you.

The response to such nonsense is, "The world is what it is, and whether you like it or not, you have no where else to live. If you want to CHANGE it for the better, you have to change the violent cultures."

 

[2ndunamended]

Stop allowing the media to define for your what constitutes a mass shooting.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Stop allowing the media to define for you anything.

 

[jrdolall]

25 years ago we had CNN Headline News and I think that was about it for 24 hour news reporting. WTBS also had the Braves on for every game.

Now we have how many 24 hour news channels? How many 24 hour sports channels? All of these have "reporters" that are trying to rise through the ranks and be noticed among a gaggle of other "reporters", all vying for that one glorious story that can make them a star. They report immediately with little interest in facts or even substance. Just get it on the air first and if it flops we can move on to the next thing. I mean, who really cares if Aunt Bessie has a new puppy? Some nut job in Seattle just shot up a Starbucks and killed all the over priced coffee beans.
MOST of the actual mass shooters are looking for their moment of glory, be it the Jihadist in California, the crazy man in Colorado, or the disgruntled employee in Virginia, they all want their name in the paper for a reason that makes sense to them and our media obliges.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I think its a combination of ignoring mental illness in this country, the moral decay of society and the inherent corrupt culture of the black's.

That combined with our very large population in comparison to European country's....of course the percentage will be higher.

Its what's in a person's heart, not what is in their hands.

 

[BSA1]

I think its a combination of ignoring mental illness in this country

Oh boy another believer in The Big Lie.

 

[steelerdude99]

Oh boy another believer in The Big Lie.

Good Job BSA1, cut out ColoradoShooter77's quote mid-sentence.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Well, I won't cut it:

I think its a combination of ignoring mental illness in this country, the moral decay of society and the inherent corrupt culture of the black's.

A 2012 study by the Chicago Police Department found that of the 500 or so homicides in the city, the perpetrators were about 2/3s Black, about 1/3 Hispanic, and less than 4% White. If we could change the violent Black and Hispanic cultures to match the White culture, we'd cut homicide by 90%.

 

[Aragon]

One rebuttal point that antis are not aware of is that the percent of gun deaths in murders has increased.

While murders and violence in general has decreased, gun violence has decreased less. For example, gun murders went from around 65% in 1980 to 72% in 2005 of all murders.

Part of this is due to vastly improved emergency medical care over that period. In other words many that used to die are now being saved through medicine.

 

[Aragon]

Well, I won't cut it:

A 2012 study by the Chicago Police Department found that of the 500 or so homicides in the city, the perpetrators were about 2/3s Black, about 1/3 Hispanic, and less than 4% White. If we could change the violent Black and Hispanic cultures to match the White culture, we'd cut homicide by 90%.

1.) "Hispanic" means "Spanish speaking" -- it does not relate to a race. Many "Hispanics" are indeed black and/or white.

2.) If you dig into the numbers for a city like Chicago, the huge majority of those living in poverty, in the worst parts of town, with the worst schools and the fewest good jobs would be be black and/or Spanish-speaking. That's the distinction and not their skin color.

3.) This is a highly complex and difficult issue -- it's not a simple racial issue as you offensively suggest.

4.) I suspect if you checked the violent crime stats "Deep in the Ozarks", most would be white. Not because of their skin color but because in that part of the US, it's largely whites that face the challenges listed above.

 

[Aragon]

I think its a combination of ignoring mental illness in this country, the moral decay of society and the inherent corrupt culture of the black's.

That's profoundly ignorant and likely racist. Sad to see anyone actually post something like that here.

That combined with our very large population in comparison to European country's....of course the percentage will be higher.

Are you sure about that? LOL! That and your misuse of apostrophes says a great deal about you...

Its what's in a person's heart, not what is in their hands.

It's what's between a person's ears too...

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

Like the out of wedlock birth rate of the black's being over 70%? Like the rampant single parent homes in the black community, total breakdown of the family unit.

With the exception of the Ben Carson's of the world, a lot of young black youth aren't taught proper morals and values.

Look at Baltimore, the city administration is pretty much black and its turned into a warzone.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

Here's another factoid, Black's make up 15% of the population, but commit 50% of the homicides.

Nothing racist about it, just the way it is.

Look at Robert Dear, he's as mental as you can get, yet he passes a background check and gets a gun. Dealers have discretion in who they sell too, whoever sold this guy a gun is an idiot. Its blatantly obvious he's a mental nutcase.

I didn't realize we had the punctuation police on the forum, ask me if I care about my "punctuation".

 

[steelerdude99]

Oh boy another believer in The Big Lie.

Good Job BSA1, cut out ColoradoShooter77's quote mid-sentence.

Good Job BSA1, cut out ColoradoShooter77's quote mid-sentence.

I am more interested in finding out what BSA thinks is the "Big Lie"; that along with quoting out of context can be misleading.

Everyone has their own ideas on what they think they are not being told the truth about. Many in the gun rights circles have vastly different ideas than those of the gun control advocates. Bottom line, I am curious as to what's being claimed here.

chuck