not enough time to draw weapon??

[thorn726]

ok the idiots in Berkeley on this other forum- drive me nuts.

to keep it short=

better to stay away from a park or area, never go alone, call for more police patrols rather than get even pepper spray, stun gun , whatever.

better not to have gun at home in case of invasion.

WHY??? because according to too many of them=

it is just so easy for BG to get your weapon from you, or for you not to be able to draw it in time/ use it properly.

anyone else steamed at this logic? got any good responses/ data?

 

[El Tejon]

Maybe, but that's why we train.

So, the police should not carry guns?

 

[flatdog]

Ah, what forum is that? I'd like to take a peek...could use some laughs.

 

[Librarian]

Well, you could ask them how they know it's so easy. Have they done it? Have they seen it done? Do they have Berkeley PD statistics or California DOJ statistics or FBI Uniform Crime Report statistics documenting some number of occurrences?

Since the answer to all of those will be 'no', I expect mere sputtering in return, but no changed (closed) minds.

As for drawing, again, how do they know? Maybe their state of readiness is always Condition White but they have no data on other folks.

 

[crofrog]

If you fire pointshooting from the holster area / retention could luck getting my gun when my other hand is going to be holding you back to shoot you in the gut / com.

 

[Feanaro]

Most people have two arms. One is for drawing and shooting. The other is for keeping the other fellow at arms length. I'd like to see ONE of these "take it away from you" types try it. I'd even use an airsoft pistol, if they aren't man enough to take one for their argument.

As for not having enough time... not everyone can be Bill Jordan or Jelly Bryce. But with practice you can come close. Jelly used to drop a quarter or some such object with his right hand at shoulder level, draw and shoot the object. I aspire to be faster. May as well shoot for the moon. I can dream up a few times you might not have enough time but a few instances of potential uselessness does not a useless weapon make.

 

[Alex45ACP]

Just tell them: "That's why you should carry two guns" .

 

[KaceCoyote]

two guns and a grenade..just in case...

 

[Alex45ACP]

^ Nah, I just have a miniature nuclear warhead in a briefcase handcuffed to my wrist. Nobody ****s with me.

 

[LaEscopeta]

“The first step is to keep a calm heart. The next, to look reality square in the face and see the truth for what it is, even when it is against what you want to believe.”

“For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were 4 unintentional shootings, 7 criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.”
Journal of Trauma, Aug 1998

“…approximately one in six officers who are killed in the line of duty are shot with their own weapon.”
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/leoka03.pdf
Also http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf, page 186.

Does the above mean you are less safe by having a gun? No. But the above and other statistics show you are NOT more safe JUST because you have a gun. You also have to know how to use it, and you have to practice. You have to know how to handle it safely, and how to store it safely in your home, knowing the types of people (kids, hot headed relatives, friends of friends, etc) who might be in your home with your gun(s.) If you don’t, well, you increase you chances of being one of the statistics cited above.

(Edited to fix format of links.)

 

[chopinbloc]

several points:
i heard another person on this forum say a while ago that if it is so easy for a criminal to take your gun from you, then you should have no problem getting it back.
IF someone were able to lay their greasy little mitts on my piece i would simply pull the trigger - as long as it's pointed at them or a solid object. have you ever tried to hold on to the slide of an auto as it fires? obviously this doesn't work if the slide is pushed out of battery but my tactic is to step back sharply and squeeze. this works for longuns and handguns as the mechanics of the situation naturally line the weapon up with their center of mass and pull the slide into battery. this is immediately followed with tap, rack assess as i'm assuming the drag on the slide caused it to short stroke and i'm not gonna wait to find out.
the only way i can see that you would not have enough time to draw is if the attack has been so violent that you are unable to draw and it happened with no warning - i.e. cinderblock to the face as you round a corner. in this case, you would be just as vulnerable if you had no gun. it becomes a non-issue.
bottom line is that a weapon and training give you a chance in a violent encounter but not having one is a sure way to be hurt, bet on it.

 

[HighVelocity]

A gun can be drawn and fired much faster than a 911 operator can be reached.

 

[Mannlicher]

There are many instances where no matter how well trained you are, and how well armed you are, its all for naught.
An attack by multiple assailants, or an ambush really puts an individual at a disadvantage.
Best protection is staying away from high risk areas, at high risk times, and honeing your situational awarness skills.
Addressing the home invasion issue is more complex. Most of us are not in 'condition yellow or higher' while sleeping. Thats where bars, locks, good quality doors and frames, lighting, alarms, dogs, and geese come into play.

 

[rwc]

Pick up a 99 cent squirt gun. Fill it up. Tell them you will give them the squirt gun if they can take it away from you and still be dry.

To be less flip about it, if someone is unwilling or unable to shoot another person than they should not have a firearm available. As someone else here alludes in their signature line, it is a cold, hard heart that kills.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I gotta get me a squirt gun. Cheap proof for sheep goofs.

 

[thorn726]

thanks guys this is great- if you want ot see the nonsense firsthand in is in the berkeley tribe at tribe.net

go there and search berkeley

there are one or two threads about crimes one titled "lowdown"

idiots keep posting these stories of people being raped etc, and then the best response they have is "ill stay away from there"

 

[Byron Quick]

I've been attacked out of the blue by a man who suddenly grabbed a sledge hammer handle off a tool chest and swung at my head. No warning. Amiable discussion to that point. Four feet distance. I got off the line of attack by taking a large sliding step to my right rear oblique while beginning my draw. He realized two things: he was going to have to take another step to get back in range and, as I already had swept my jacket and reached my handgun...he wasn't going to make it. He dropped the handle.

These dweebs are spouting the propaganda that's been spouted to them.

There's only one class on private gun carriers who are in danger of losing their firearms...those who don't know if they could shoot someone. While they are trying to make up their mind at crunch time...they give their assailant time to close.

Tell these bozos that I'm willing to get a paintball gun and they can get goggles. Then they can try to take the paintball gun away from me without getting shot. Repeated application of the pain of getting hit with a paintball might educate them.

 

[grnzbra]

IF someone were able to lay their greasy little mitts on my piece i would simply pull the trigger

Might not do any good.
The first move in a disarm is to get out from in front of the gun.
The second move is to violently attack the gun.
Depending on the technique used, the gun would either go off into the air (gun is rotated up into the trigger finger) or the gun would not go off at all (gun is rotated out from under the trigger finger. Be thankful that the gun doesn't go off; in this method, the gun ends up pointed at the shooter.)
Criminals in prison have all the time in the world to practice disarm techniques.

You would need to shoot before he got his hands on the gun. Othersise, you're just too far behind OODA to fire the gun

Actually, we must consider that the people who frequent forums such as this have a high interest in self defense and guns. However, not all CCW holders fit into that category. People who get a CCW and think of the gun a talisman that wards off evil might very well be easily disarmed. Perhaps the people who express concern about that are the same type of people. Kinda like "It takes one to know one".

 

[K-Romulus]

from another thread

"Armed bozo meets armed cashier - cashier wins... "
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=141783

Clip from Collateral:

 

[10shooter]

Simple response is to ask for one example were a weapon was taken way from the victim and used by the attacker (I can't find one). Then you can use the newspaper for examples on ways no self defense only works for thugs. Only raped but not hurt for not resisting is not a viable solution.

 

[mnrivrat]

“For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were 4 unintentional shootings, 7 criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.”

Then the method :

Methods: We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.

This is why my college professor in statistics gave the following informative phrase on the first day of class : " there are lies, there are big lies, then there are statistics "

The point being this is how people use statistics to propagate pure BS . If you look at the conclusion it is based on a lie -- the lie being in the word "used" . There are many times that a firearm was/could be used in home protection without being fired , or by being fired without death or nonfatal injury. They didn't count those did they ?

What that does is render the so called statistic into the realm of pure crap .

 

[thorn726]

Tell these bozos that I'm willing to get a paintball gun and they can get goggles. Then they can try to take the paintball gun away from me without getting shot. Repeated application of the pain of getting hit with a paintball might educate them.

oh man yes!

all of this stuff is great, i might have to cut and paste a bit of it at some point.

 

[LaEscopeta]

The point being this is how people use statistics to propagate pure BS.

This is a good point. One-way people miss use statistics is to draw conclusions far beyond what the numbers can support. For instance, many people look at the statistics of accidental/criminal use of home-kept firearms being more prevalent then self defense shooting, and draw the conclusion you are safer in a home without a firearm then you are with one.

If you look at the details of accidental/criminal shootings, it is clear this conclusion is not true. Accidental/criminal shooting generally involve careless handling or storage. If you follow the 4 rules of firearm safety, it is just about impossible to shoot some one by accident. Also, most burglars know people keep guns by their beds; this is one of the first places they look when they break in. Most break-ins occur in the afternoon, because burglars know (from experience or talking to other criminals in prison) that is the least likely time find someone home. So they get the often unlocked and loaded gun from beside the bed first, to keep someone from using it lawfully in self-defense, if they come home unexpectedly, are in the basement, etc. If you make an effort to secure your firearms, where it will take time for someone to find (but you can still find/use in an emergency) you are vastly reducing the odds of it being used against you.

Another way people miss use statistics is to say any statistics that does not support their pre-conceived beliefs are false. It is a free county; if you want to do this, go ahead. But if you want act for your own and your family’s safety and best interest, it might be better to look at all the available facts, and then form your beliefs. The exact ratio of accidental/criminal vs. lawful shootings vary, but statistics and multiple studies done over the decades and around the county show the accidental/criminal ones are more prevalent then the lawful ones.

There are many times that a firearm was/could be used in home protection without being fired, or by being fired without death or nonfatal injury. They didn't count those did they?

This is another good point. But if you count the times a firearm was used in home protection without being fired or without hitting someone, you would also have to count this times idiots had a non-intentional discharge but didn’t hit any one. And you would have to count the number of times criminals stole a gun from a house, and got away with it with out shooting any one. These would be difficult to count (the reason the study cited did not count them) and I’m sure the ratio of bad to good shooting would change, but I’ve yet to see a study where it can be shown there are more good shooting then bad.

 

[fjolnirsson]

If someone takes my gun from me, they'll have to beat me to death with it, because it will be empty.
Seriously, how 'bout this?When the bad guy tries to take my gun, I hold onto it. Duh. Meanwhile, I bury my left hand blade in his neck/groin/temple,etc. Repeat as needed. But, having dealt with Berkeley type folks, I realize this would never occur to most of them, because they can't fathom "harming another life force" or some such. It might disrupt the bance of things, throwing their chi off, and causing them to have a really bad day.

 

[mnrivrat]

These would be difficult to count (the reason the study cited did not count them) and I’m sure the ratio of bad to good shooting would change,

This is what completely discredits the study , just leave a bunch of data out because it is too difficult to count or because you know it would distroy a pre-conceived point that your trying to justify.

Another way people miss use statistics is to say any statistics that does not support their pre-conceived beliefs are false. It is a free county; if you want to do this, go ahead. But if you want act for your own and your family’s safety and best interest, it might be better to look at all the available facts, and then form your beliefs.

My point exactly - and whom has posted bad statistical data as fact ?

I’ve yet to see a study where it can be shown there are more good shooting then bad.

Here again you are not talking about using a firearm for self defense because that would have to include non-shootings as well. Perhaps you should widen your scope of reading on the subject and weed out those so called statistics that are based on bias and vodoo .