"not my problem"

[mekender]

so many times i hear the same old "not my problem" or "im not a cop" or "i wouldnt get involved" weather its a hypothetical situation about a robbery, or watching a store employee chase a shoplifter etc etc... it seems that a vast majority of the people here want to own and carry firearms, but arent willing to use them unless they are threatened... no matter that the law allows them to use their firearm to defend someone else, its all a matter of "not my problem"

well here is what "not my problem" can lead to...

WARNING, BLOODY VIDEO!!!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e1_1199622703

the three people in the first part of the video are so afraid to act that they are sheepishly kicking at the attacker like they would tap open a door... they are trying to keep the whole thing so far at a distance that they are ineffective, all the while the woman gets stabbed over and over again... the guy holding the camera is doing a fine job of "being a good witness"... but for over a minute at least 4 people stand there doing almost nothing... it doesnt matter that this happened in europe, similar things happen every day in the US... in fact it has...

in 1964, Kitty Genovese was attacked and murdered over a period of more than an hour... at least 12 people heard her screams and yet no one helped her or even called the cops... another fine case of "not my problem"

and from watching the threads here, i see over and over again people saying... "nope, not me, im not a cop" or "not my business to get involved unless i am being attacked"

i guess the mantra is true, dont expect anyone to help you... help yourself... sad... really sad

 

[BikerRN]

Having been in two "Armed Encounters" I will tell you this, if it doesn't affect me and mine I'm not getting involved. The only exception to this would be a Uniformed LEO in trouble.

I carry handguns to protect myself and my family when I am off duty, not society as a whole. On Duty I am covered by my Agency, and they have much deeper pockets than I ever will. Off Duty, any actions I take will be considered as, "acting outside the scope of employment, and thus acting as a private citizen." In short, I am on my own.

I'm not willing to risk my pension, retirement and financial well-being for a stranger, let alone my life if I don't have to. Even a "Good Shoot" will be exspensive to deal with and defend. I have better use for my money and will go out of my way to avoid a gunfight.

Biker

 

[jeepmor]

I could easily make that one my problem. But, as Bogie so eloquently and simply pointed out in another thread, shooting people is messy and expensive. I think the biggest deterrent to most folks is the fear of the hellish legal ramifications.

However, I couldn't live with myself if I didn't do something about an event like that in this video.

As for those of you that can make excuses not to act, you are part of the problem, not the solution. I agree with the "my liveliehood is at stake" statement. But when I meet my maker, I want to be able to look him in the eye. If I stood by and did nothing, I'm afraid I could no longer do that.

 

[Cannonball888]

In FL the police usually do not charge a legally justified shooter. Also, FL law prohibits lawsuits from the BG and his family.

 

[sacp81170a]

so many times i hear the same old "not my problem" or "im not a cop" or "i wouldnt get involved" weather its a hypothetical situation about a robbery, or watching a store employee chase a shoplifter etc etc...

How is taking cover, seeking a position of advantage, calling 911 and observing the criminal with a drawn weapon in hand so as to be able to intervene if necessary "not getting involved"? That's the best advice I've seen given most consistently to the hypothetical 7-11 robbery scenarios we've grown so fond of. Using sound tactics and being a good witness seems like the epitome of "getting involved" to me. The gun is for your own defense or the last ditch defense of someone else, not for catching crooks and stopping robberies in progress.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

well here is what "not my problem" can lead to...

What did "not my problem" lead to? It still wasn't "my problem" for the bystanders in the video.

the three people in the first part of the video are so afraid to act that they are sheepishly kicking at the attacker like they would tap open a door... they are trying to keep the whole thing so far at a distance that they are ineffective, all the while the woman gets stabbed over and over again...

This is interesting. You berate the folks that took action for not taking enough action in the video, under the guise of "not my problem," but they did take action. It wasn't very effective, but they did get involved and made it their problem. I fail to see why you would couch their efforts under "not my problem" when you didn't bother to mention the cameraman and the guy he was speaking with who did make it "not my problem" and only stood and watched. Heck, if you want to say the cameraman was being a good witness, then all the other folks could be good witnesses as well, right? In short, you have misassigned blame against those who took action, even if they were too fearful of being harmed to take very effective action.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

My only issue is with people who won't get involved at all with obviously brutal crimes against another person.

If two grown men are in a fistfight on the side of the road, I might snicker as I ride by. Maybe honk the horn.

But, when it comes to crimes against females such as sexual assault, battery, and related crimes, I'm afraid I have to get involved.

While I appreciate BikerRN's arguments (and many others here), and largely agree with them, I have to say that there's no way I'm going to stand by and watch BikerRN's wife be abducted or victimized. Same for his kids, or extended family. And, there's no way I'd stand by and watch some psychotic who is off his meds stab his mother to death.

I have my hot buttons. Cash? Nope. I could care less about the cash being stolen. Crimes against persons- now there's where I would draw the line. And, I'd take my chances with a jury.

And, I'm sure it sounds like a lot of netbravado and bluster. I won't bore you with a narrative, but I grew up in a pretty rough area and have seen violence visit people I love. And, I know what it's like to feel helpless when you weren't there and have noone bother to help when there are people around who could have. That's where I'm coming from.

Anyone who wants to reciprocate with me, I'm only to happy to accept since I have people I love that I can't protect all the time.

And, anyone who disagrees, well I guess we'll just have to disagree.

 

[Biker]

*Well* said, wheelgunslinger.

Biker

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

That was a hard video to stomach, not for the blood, but for the apathy. Those two guys that were haphazardly kicking this guy... I can barely wrap my mind around it. They were afraid, which is nothing to be ashamed of. But they were indecisive, hesitant. They couldn't decide whether to do something or not. So by default, they did nothing.

Bearing in mind that I'm not licensed to carry, I still say that there isn't a hard and fast line between "act" and "don't act". It's specific to a situation. To a degree, I agree with those that say they carry mainly to protect themselves and their family, and wouldn't get involved in most situations. However, in my mind, that's mainly with regard to situations where either:

A. A crime is being committed but nobody's been hurt yet. The hypothetical gas-station robbery, discussed in a recent thread. By initiating force, you could easily get somebody else or yourself killed, and may face questions of justification. The situation changes if the robber shoots a clerk or bystander, or if I am put in more direct danger.

B. Overwhelming force. How about that 1997 North Hollywood robbery, two guys in armor with Kalashnikovs? Or how about that opening scene from Tom Clancy's Patriot Games, movie or book? Again, multiple shooters with Kalashnikovs. Faced with overwhelming force, I retreat.

C. I don't know what's really going on. Something, but what? Walking into something you don't understand is never a good idea.

Back to the video, I've been asking myself what I would do, assuming I was unarmed (which I would be, as noted above). He's obviously pretty disturbed, and he's got a knife. Bad combination, not something you really want to tangle with. Kicking the guy isn't a horrible idea. Get him off the woman, drive him away. Don't worry about restraining him (that is a cop's job), just get him to stop hurting her. He's low to the ground; maybe a hard kick to the head would move him. If that doesn't work, something more desperate: A body tackle from behind. NOT the front, where the knife is, but behind. Get the guy on the ground, laying on his knife or splayed out with his knife hand vulnerable. I'm a largish guy, and fairly strong, so maybe I can control the wrist on his knife hand, put the guy in an arm-lock.

Something. Anything. Yeah, maybe I get cut. Maybe I die. And, yeah, maybe this is bravado. I hope not. I'd like to think I'm not the kind of guy who can watch a woman get stabbed repeatedly and just stand there, calling dial-a-prayer.

 

[Biker]

There's always a way. Tire iron in the car? Use it. Fire extinguisher upside his head...Your own pocket knife...I wear boots and I *know* that a kick in the face or head will cause him to cease and desist.

Men are born to fight and sometimes die so that the women and children can perpetuate the species. It's instinctual, intrinsic. It's what we do. We're expendable. There's a reason why we put "Women and children first!".

Biker

 

[ZeSpectre]

Here's what I saw, there were SO MANY weapons available but people are so trained into helplessness (none of those people probably ever even considered that violence could happen, let alone how to respond) that it makes me sick.

I'm certain that there were belts that could be used as flails or restraints, dirt and/or rocks on the ground, hell the one guy had a freaking bookbag full of something and the other guy had a bicycle. Folks could have used jackets, and God only knows what other urban detritus was laying around.

I saw exactly ONE person grab some sort of club to use and everyone else was responding barehanded.

Hell two guys with a belt (one on each side) could have clotheslined this guy off the woman without much risk to themselves.

So lets all take a moment to look around us and re-asses what is available to hand BEFORE we ever need to respond to a situation (run some scenarios through your mind). Once the whistle has blown it's too late to come up with a game plan.

 

[Dravur]

Time to unwad...

In this case I would have gotten involved, either shooting the guy in the head or drop kicking his head to the next block. Now, does that mean I would intervene in any situation?

No. simply put, unless another's life is in danger and I have a reasonable chance to stop it, I would not intervene. I am not Batman, nor a police officer. I am not a ninja.

Sometimes, you have to just hold back and be a good witness.

A scenario..... you walk into a parking garage and find a homeless dude, beating the tar out of a guy in a suit.... What do you do?

What if the homeless dude is an undercover cop taking down a <insert bad guy profession here> and you draw down and order him to stop? Well, here comes his partner in and who does he see holding a gun on his partner?

You don't know what you don't know.

 

[mrkwns]

I thought it was kind of interesting that a dozen people stood around the crazy guy after he was pulled off, but nobody had any interest in making sure the victim didn't bleed to death. She wandered around in shock, bloody as hell, and nobody did anything to help her, comfort her, or even stop her from wandering into traffic. Nice.

 

[golfer]

I have personally been involved in situations where people just stood around and watched. 1 ended in a death because I could do no more, 3 could have if I had not gotten involved.
The thing I could not understand is the absolue idiots who just stood there and would not lend a hand. The other thing I had trouble with is they stayed there, not leaving or running away, they just stood there.
One thing you can count on if you are in trouble, NO ONE WILL HELP YOU.
BikerRN, I don't like you statement, althought I think I understand where you are coming from. I encourge everyone to lend a hand. BikerRN is not wrong, but I believe he is not correct either. We have to be very careful when/if we decide to get involved.
Please let me urge you folks to think about this issue. There are plenty of ways to help. In this case it was obviouse, there is no leagle way a man is allowed to kill another and this is a case where we should not hesitate to get involoved. That man should have been overcome and subdued. We can not hope the LEO who is 4 blocks away can see this and respond.
Most people on forums like this are so much more aware of their surroundings, let me encourage you to ve invloved in all things good and likewise may you encourage others to do likewise.

 

[ceetee]

I don't know if this has any basis in reality, but it's a quote from the movie "The Kingdom".

"You know, Westmoreland made all of us officers write our own obituaries during Tet, when we thought The Cong were gonna end it all right there. And, once we clued into the fact that life is finite, the thought of losing it didn't scare us anymore. The end comes no matter what, the only thing that matters is how do you wanna go out, on your feet or on your knees? I bring that lesson to this job. I act, knowing that someday this job will end, no matter what. You should do the same." -FBI Director James Grace from "The Kingdom"

As the actor read the words, the feeling slowly settled in me that I've been that pretty much my whole life. I've done things I'm not proud of, and I've done things to be proud of that nobody'll ever hear about. All-in-all, I have to approach every situation as it happens, and worry about legal ramifications, or hindsight being 20-20 later on. I just act in the way that I act, and after 40-something years on the planet, I can still hold my head up and look myself in the mirror.

Sometimes, you just have to do what a man has to do, to be a man.

 

[XDKingslayer]

i see over and over again people saying... "nope, not me, im not a cop" or "not my business to get involved unless i am being attacked"

Some people can't function in a violent situation. Some worry about being sued and I can't say I blame them. They have to live the rest of their lives knowing they stood by and did nothing. They have to look at themselves in the mirror knowing that person might still be alive had they done something, but they didn't.

I don't go sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, but standing there holding a camera while someone gets stabbed is pathetic.

 

[Robert Hairless]

so many times i hear the same old "not my problem" or "im not a cop" or "i wouldnt get involved" weather its a hypothetical situation about a robbery, or watching a store employee chase a shoplifter etc etc...

it seems that a vast majority of the people here want to own and carry firearms, but arent willing to use them unless they are threatened...

no matter that the law allows them to use their firearm to defend someone else, its all a matter of "not my problem"

You criticize gun owners for not using a firearm to get involved in "a robbery, or watching a store employee chase a shoplifter" but you try to make that point by using a video clip that shows a man stabbing a woman on the street. The video doesn't make your point. Every state law that I know distinguishes between crimes against people and crimes against property. The two kinds of crimes are different and someone who ignores that difference is potentially dangerous.

As for gun owners not being "willing to use [their guns] unless they are threatened," that's why I got a Concealed Weapons Permit. I got it for the sole purpose of defending my life and the lives of my family against threat of death or great bodily harm. I did not get it for the purpose of defending your life or person, and most certainly not for the purpose of stopping someone from robbing you or shoplifting your goods.

Like it or not I am not a cop, I don't want to be one, and I certainly wouldn't be one if it meant I had to shoot someone just because a robbery or shoplifting victim was so angry or upset that he wanted the criminal shot.

That's part of the problem with using a violent crime against someone to urge that gun owners involve themselves in crimes against property. It muddles separate things together in order to urge the same response to everything. Gun owners have the responsibility to think more clearly than that and to respond proportionate to situations. There's a big difference between helping someone in trouble and shooting people because you have a Concealed Weapons Permit.

 

[Shadowangel]

I would be a witness to most crimes, but I couldn't stand by and watch some woman get raped, or watch a person kill someone in front of me. I would act at that point and deal with any consequences later. My primary concern is me and mine, but I couldn't look in the mirror if I didn't intervene in a situation like in that video.

 

[jsconnelly]

That lady was someone's daughter. Maybe a mother, sister or aunt. She may not be "mine" but I would hope someone would jump in and help my daughter in a situation like that. How could I ask someone to do that if I'm not willing myself. In that situation, the stabber dies.

Shadow summed it up for me.

 

[eyebrows]

2 weeks ago my GF was in traffic when two guys got out of the car in front of her. They pulled another guy out of the backseat and started kicking and beating him, in the middle of the street, right in front of her. She called 911 and was honking and yelling but they kicked this guy to DEATH right in front of her.
I've been debating whether or not I would have done something if I'd been there. Well the question is not IF because I would have done something. The question is WHAT. My concern is I don't want to mess up my life for someone I don't know, possibly a scum bag. But I have to weigh that with Karma, I'd want that dude to help me if I had trouble.

 

[redneckdan]

As a husband my first duty is to my wife, first and for most, once she is safe I can worrry about other people.


In the video stated at the beginning of this thread, I would have tried hitting him with a base ball bat sorta implement (ie tire iron, pipe, etc), to try and get him off her.. Failing that; I would have rice patty proned, drawn, yelled "stop right f***ing now" or some thing like that and if he didn't responsed it'd be time for 1 to the head. He was obviously bent on killing her, I couldn't stand by and watch her get killed.

 

[jwxspoon]

2 men fighting, I stay out of it. A man attacking a woman or a child, I get involved. Right or wrong, that's how I feel. It's part of what makes me who I am and I couldn't live with myself if I didn't do something.

Years ago, when I was still in the army I was sitting at home on a saturday afternoon. I heard frantic pounding on my front door and went and answered it and the new neighbor's wife across the street was standing there crying. She asked me to let her in and call the police.

About this time the husband shows up and grabs his wife by the hand and begins to drag her across the street. I couldn't just sit there and watch it. I yelled for my wife to call the police and went out the door yelling for the husband to let her go. I instinctively knew it was a very dangerous situation, but I wouldn't sit and wait for 30 minutes until the police got there wondering what the guy was doing to the woman.

In the end the guy and I yelled at each other in the middle of the street for a few minutes and we got lucky, a police officer arrived only 5-10 minutes after my wife's call.

Was I right? Probably not. But I couldn't just sit there.

jw

 

[Pilgrim]

the three people in the first part of the video are so afraid to act that they are sheepishly kicking at the attacker like they would tap open a door... they are trying to keep the whole thing so far at a distance that they are ineffective, all the while the woman gets stabbed over and over again... the guy holding the camera is doing a fine job of "being a good witness"... but for over a minute at least 4 people stand there doing almost nothing...

Seeing that the attacker only got four years for his crime, I can understand the actions of the bystanders who tried to intervene but were ineffectual.

Remember this video when you see a child suspended from school for drawing pictures of firearms or sent to anger management classes for using a piece of fried chicken as a play gun.

Pilgrim

 

[Mainsail]

Isn't it a Marine motto; Death before dishonor...

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Remember this video when you see a child suspended from school for drawing pictures of firearms or sent to anger management classes for using a piece of fried chicken as a play gun.

In one of my former careers I was a middle school teacher. One school I worked at had a large banner hanging in the main lobby; "Violence is NEVER the answer".