Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by and103, Jun 5, 2010.
we are a bunch of Kill joys here in S&T
I mean, all the not getting your butt kicked...
why shed unnecessary blood
the whole best leave and let the idiot be
To the OP, this is pretty standard
see, in the real world, stupidity has consequences, pick a fight and you end up with medical bills, legal bill, and if you carry, a whole bunch of trouble, cause any crime you do, such as assault, now becomes eligible for the weapons bingo in most states, yep, simple old assault, with an extra 5 years for doing so armed....
Did I mention, the time, the money and the trouble, that is why you walk away, best not to get involved, let the buffoon stomp, cops can come and taze him.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for the replies guys. I too have Martial Arts training and know how it is harder to get bigger guys down. When I posted this thread I meant what if you couldn't get away from this guy?
Shadow, I know drawing the gun is the wrong thing to do, never once did I say to do that. I'm not sure why you keep leaning that way?
Anyway, I didn't mean to break any rules or anything, just something that was on my mind. Thanks to all who respond.
you only have to posses the gun and get charged with a crime
Hence the avoidance of mutual combat
I was pointing out the usual way most of these threads go, didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out, check out the "why so few post on S&T" thread, was pretty informative
the first thing to do is avoid the fight. the minute things start to go south, walk away. if you are attacked, then defend yourself with as little force as possible. that will depend on how drunk the guy is. if he can barely walk, slurs his words, and in general seems uncoordinated, then you can generally avoid any wild punches he might throw, and at the same time get him on the ground without causing permanent harm. this way you can get some needed distance between you and him.
if on the other hand he is legally drunk, but not staggering, you could be in trouble if you allow him to get too close. just remember it doesnt matter how big a person is, take out a knee, and he wont be getting back up for a while.
It's all part of the act.
Remember to put your dollars in the hat.
If he comes at you, leave faster.
Doesn't matter if he's 7 feet tall and covered with spikes or a 5'2" 90# weakling. In situations involving belligerent drunks, you're most likely going to end up regretting doing anything other than leaving.
Back when I was a bar bouncer, I found how hard a drunk hits the floor to be in direct proportion to his level of intoxication. This was especially true with larger guys. Without balance, the bigger they are the harder they fall (and much more difficult for them to get back up)
#2 - Don't get involved unless I have to. Don't piss him off or attrack his attention.
I like the mace option, if I have to react.
I usually carry a knive, or a pen, in addition to my 9mm. If for some weird reason I have neither of these with me, I hope I will have the common sense to start looking for a makeshift weapon as soon as this guy becomes aggro. It's a crowded area so th e9mm is NOT an option.
If I'm alone and he does not target me, I would probably stick around to see if I can help out if he attacks someone who will not be able to defend him or herself.
If I'm alone and he targets me, I really like that mace option. I would probably try and convince him to f___ off (with those words unfortunately - I'm not too bright) because the cops are on their way.
If my family is with me I will try to leave quietly, their safety is priority.
If leaving quietly is not an option, that mace option is looking even better! Believe me, I will not hesitate to stab him if he threatens any member of my family. The red mist descends on me when my family is threatened.
I have seen drunk, grown men assualt mothers and children when the fists start flying, simply because drunk fools don't care to discriminte between a real threat and an innocent bystander.
I will NOT take that chance with my family.
Very true, however...
Once he sobers up and reliazes he is now crippled, quite possibly for life, his lawyer will be contacting you to see about the lifetime payments you will be making to him for your viscous assault on his poor client.
Thats why you need to avoid the fight, it may not turn out like the movies where the bad guy takes his beating and all go home feeling warm and fuzzy.
Lawyers gotta eat too, or so I'm told.
Oh. this is the internet. OK, I'd whip out my gun and give him two to the body and one to the head.
However, I think we can distill a valid question from the OP - what do you do when you're selected as the target of someone's self-fabricated drunken wrath, and clearly they're more than a match for you physically?
Do an internet search for "killed by a single punch", and most likely dozens of such incidents will come up.
I'm shocked that the law would give extra consideration to someone in a drunken state. After all, if person A is stone-cold sober, makes a careless turn and strikes a fire hydrant, they might be charged with something minor or perhaps not even charged at all, but if person B has had a few too many and does the same thing, that's a heavy misdemeanor or a felony.
Quite. And the "leave before it happens" answer has been covered. I'd like to know (perhaps from folks who've dealt with drunks professionally) what sort of non-force options they've found effective. Do "verbal judo" type things tend to be of any use? Or are these sorts of drunks usually too far gone to follow anything you're saying?
Personally, in my very few encounters with drunks who were looking to become aggressive, I've had some luck with just walking around them. (Like, in a circle.) Most drunks can't follow an officer's finger/pen during a road side; they don't seem (IME!) to have an easy time keeping track of you if you're moving, and become even more disoriented. (Worked as a prelude to just walking away once they didn't have their eyes on me. YMMV.)
Yeah, uh, short of a reference to case law or the statutes of some state, I don't even remotely believe the law anywhere gives drunks some extra leeway. The legal consequences would be rather perverse. (And a quick check of Colorado law finds 18-1-804 "Intoxication of the accused is not a defense to a criminal charge..." unless the intoxication wasn't self induced. The section is followed by references to case law as long as my arm going into details, none of which seem very encouraging for a hypothetical drunk.)
-Escape/evade if possible;
-If you can't escape/evade, attempt to de-escalate;
-If you must defend yourself use the degree of force necessary to avoid serious injury or death.
Find an equalizer. I would use my gun, if he was determined to kill me with his hands.
1. Do not argue with a drunk. He wants a fight, don't give him one.
Given the OPs original point of, you have failed to de-escalate and/or leave for whatever reason and now you are faced with a large drunk man coming after you:
2. OC spray, it is really the only thing aside from pure hand to hand. As you said before you are in a crowd, lots of bystanders who will be hurt and/or die if it turns into a shooting scenario. Firearms really are not something of any use to you. You are better to take a beating than be responsible for the death or those bystanders, especially since there are kids around.
So I'll take the original post's question references that this large man is physically assaulting someone. To that I'm guessing to infer that the assault is causing harm to that person - not a verbal assault - and that person is not defending him/herself. I'm not the biggest or toughest guy in any crowd, but I would have to step in and try to stop the assault. Hopefully someone else (or many others) would not leave the area and do the right thing to help me out.
This is when we find out if we are men or women. If there is no physical assault, I just take my family and leave. But in a circumstance when someone is being injured, I do feel an obligation to try and help the good person. Maybe I read the post wrong, but that's what I got out of it.
Yep...and if the big drunk guy is smart, he'll let me leave peacefully.
You are kidding, right?
Either that or you have a very narrow, unrealistic perspective. I am well over 50 years old, under 150 lbs, and have had several major surgeries. If you think I am going to take a butt -hoopin' from an intoxicated, violent, probably much younger 300 pounder, you are out of your mind.
With luck, I would never be there in the first place. If I'm there, I'll leave if I can...but I don't move as fast as I once did.
If it comes down to it, I'll trust my lawyer to convince the jury of disparity of force (in the meantime, you might want to look it up). At least I'll be there to witness the closing arguments.
began assaulting people."
Since I have not walked away, and he commences to kick off on someone. I would assist. I would first call fellow LEOs to assist, and then follow our force continuum. He's already at Hard Hands, so I would throat punch him, protect my weapon, and do everything possible to get him off the civilian. If his aggression is turned to me, or if it appears that his assault is reasonably believed to be putting the person's life at risk, I would be authorized deadly force. I would be yelling commands continuously, and using all tools I have to get him to break loose from the civilian.
Tough situational question, with alot of alternatives.
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