NOW I see the Problem!

Status
Not open for further replies.

krs

Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
2,610
Location
Tall Trees
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

"U.S. Is Arms Bazaar for Mexican Cartels
By JAMES C. McKINLEY Jr.
Published: February 25, 2009

PHOENIX — The Mexican agents who moved in on a safe house full of drug dealers last May were not prepared for the fire power that greeted them.

When the shooting was over, eight agents were dead. Among the guns the police recovered was an assault rifle traced back across the border to a dingy gun store here called X-Caliber Guns.

Now, the owner, George Iknadosian, will go on trial on charges he sold hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47 rifles, to smugglers, knowing they would send them to a drug cartel in the western state of Sinaloa. The guns helped fuel the gang warfare in which more than 6,000 Mexicans died last year.

Mexican authorities have long complained that American gun dealers are arming the cartels. This case is the most prominent prosecution of an American gun dealer since the United States promised Mexico two years ago it would clamp down on the smuggling of weapons across the border. It also offers a rare glimpse of how weapons delivered to American gun dealers are being moved into Mexico and wielded in horrific crimes.

“We had a direct pipeline from Iknadosian to the Sinaloa cartel,” said Thomas G. Mangan, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix.

Drug gangs seek out guns in the United States because the gun-control laws are far tougher in Mexico. Mexican civilians must get approval from the military to buy guns and they cannot own large-caliber rifles or high-powered pistols, which are considered military weapons.

The ease with which Mr. Iknadosian and two other men transported weapons to Mexico over a two-year period illustrates just how difficult it is to stop the illicit trade, law enforcement officials here say.

The gun laws in the United States allow the sale of multiple military-style rifles to American citizens without reporting the sales to the government

(What? I've had 4473's and NICS for nothing??), and the Mexicans search relatively few cars and trucks going south across their border (Uhh, this is our problem......how?).

What is more, the sheer volume of licensed dealers — more than 6,600 along the border alone, many of them operating out of their houses I guess that depends on where the border is defined to be. There are Hispanic political groups trying to "reclaim" lands all the way into Wisconsin) — makes policing them a tall order. Currently the A.T.F. has about 200 agents assigned to the task.

Smugglers routinely enlist Americans with clean criminal records to buy two or three rifles at a time, often from different shops, then transport them across the border in cars and trucks, often secreting them in door panels or under the hood, law enforcement officials here say. Some of the smuggled weapons are also bought from private individuals at gun shows, and the law requires no notification of the authorities in those cases (Wait......you said above that there was no reporting AT ALL).

“We can move against the most outrageous purveyors of arms to Mexico, but the characteristic of the arms trade is it’s a ‘parade of ants’ (Oh boy..I LIKE that one. THR - you are ANTS!) — it’s not any one big dealer, it’s lots of individuals,” said Arizona’s attorney general, Terry Goddard, who is prosecuting Mr. Iknadosian. “That makes it very hard to detect because it’s often below the radar.”

The Mexican government began to clamp down on drug cartels in late 2006, unleashing a war that daily deposits dozens of bodies — often gruesomely tortured — on Mexico’s streets. President Felipe Calderón has characterized the stream of smuggled weapons as one of the most significant threats to security in his country. The Mexican authorities say they seized 20,000 weapons from drug gangs in 2008, the majority bought in the United States (I don't know about you, but my dealings with Mexican authorities years ago proved to me that they are LYING SNAKES).

The authorities in the United States say they do not know how many firearms are transported across the border each year, in part because the federal government does not track gun sales (again......what?) and traces only weapons used in crimes. But A.T.F. officials estimate 90 percent of the weapons recovered in Mexico come from dealers north of the border. (where can I buy me an M79 and a few hundred 40mm grenades? I loved my thumper and have felt deprived and lonely without it since 1969)

In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.

Mr. Iknadosian is accused of being one of those dealers. So brazen was his operation that the smugglers paid him in advance for the guns and the straw buyers merely filled out the required paperwork and carried the weapons off, according to A.T.F. investigative reports. The agency said Mr. Iknadosian also sold several guns to undercover agents who had explicitly informed him that they intended to resell them in Mexico.

Mr. Iknadosian, 47, will face trial on March 3 on charges including fraud, conspiracy and assisting a criminal syndicate. His lawyer, Thomas M. Baker, declined to comment on the charges, but said Mr. Iknadosian maintained his innocence. No one answered the telephone at Mr. Iknadosian’s home in Glendale, Ariz.

A native of Egypt who spent much of his life in California, Mr. Iknadosian moved his gun-selling operation to Arizona in 2004, because the gun laws were more lenient, prosecutors said. "


(continues to page two in the linked article)
 
So, a criminal is representative of every FFL in the land? Gosh, I wonder if politicians would care to have the same statements made about them? There are MANY more politicians currently under investigation for felonies than FFL holders. How about the Senator that ran for re-election after indictment for a felony? Or that Illinois Governor? Spiro Agnew? Nixon? Huey Long? The list goes back centuries.

Obviously, if one FFL is cause for additional legislation, then one hundred current politicians should be the same.

Oddly enough, a recent article about Mexican drug gangs mentioned a prominent Mexican General pointing out that SOUTH AMERICA was actually the easiest source for illegal guns. WHY would Mexican bandits, revolutionaries, terrorists, or drug gangs use semi-auto Aks and ARs when the military versions are readily available? After all, there is no problem with them obtaining grenades, RPGs, and GP machineguns. Thbose don't come out of the United States gunshops along the border.
 
In this case, the biggest problem was a dealer breaking the law.

I really think this is an isolated case. Ever wonder why Hugo Chavez ordered 100k AK47s from the Soviet Union? Yes, the Mexico/US border is pretty porous but I'd bet all the other routes into Mexico are even worse.

Why send a few people at a time to buy a $600 semi-auto AK47 clone made from a parts kit when you can spend $100 on a real AK47 smuggled up from the south? (Not to mention the 40mm grenades bought from sources from within the Mexican army if not also smuggled in.)

Edit: Here is a good commentary on it:
http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/rw807.html
 
Last edited:
The Mexicans must really be stimulating the US Citizen to do these things. Money es good, even if it is in Pesos.

What a mess. "Baniacs" arming and bunkering down, Determined Lawful folks buying wherever they find stuff they need, Others learning to make thier own, Mexicans buying good weapons to fight a war they intend to win, And neither Government of Mexico or the United States seem able to do anything about it.

Wont be long before our battle hardened troops come home from Iraq with thier house busting skills and start storming homes down there.
 
Oddly enough, a recent article about Mexican drug gangs mentioned a prominent Mexican General pointing out that SOUTH AMERICA was actually the easiest source for illegal guns. WHY would Mexican bandits, revolutionaries, terrorists, or drug gangs use semi-auto Aks and ARs when the military versions are readily available? After all, there is no problem with them obtaining grenades, RPGs, and GP machineguns. Thbose don't come out of the United States gunshops along the border.


Yes, but there's one BIG problem with pointing the finger to the lands south of Mexico - most of the weapons down there were supplied to those countries by US, or since you and I would never do it, programs of aid, approved by congress or not, from the United States and no one will ever admit to it now...but Ollie knows..

I mean, I know a 40 mike-mike grenade when I see one. :) "Poick".............BOOM! I loved those things, I really did.
 
There have been several threads about this, but I must say I enjoyed your commentary :p
 
When Mexico keeps its drugs and ahhh "escapees" south of the border, we will keep our guns on the north side.
 
This is just simply not true...

You can't get full automatic weapons, RPG's and grenades at gun stores of gun shows. ALSO, why would they pay $800 for an AK / AR wannabe, when they can import the real deal from China and / or other countries via their armies for $100 or so per unit?
 
Simple solution.

Get more firearms into the hands of law abiding, hard working, honest Mexican citizens.

Oh wait, they have laws against that.

I guess when you outlaw guns, the only people with guns are the criminals.

Until the good guys are armed, this problem will persist.

Even if the US were a primary source of arms into the drug cartels, cutting off that source would only have the criminals go to another source. Problem not solved.
 
ALSO, why would they pay $800 for an AK / AR wannabe, when they can import the real deal from China and / or other countries via their armies for $100 or so per unit?

Given the huge amount of cash and drugs they are defending, I don't think US prices are much of a concern. And I suspect they are capable of buying gunsmithing to release an AK to it's full auto potential (I don't know how easy or feasible that is, myself).

But your point is right on. They might get their guns from the US now if that is what's easiest, but there are plenty of other sources to tap if necessary.
 
If the US Government wants to help Mexico's citizens I suggest provideing each and every law-abiding Mexican household with at least 1 M16 and 10,000 rounds of ammunition so that they may be able to defend themselves.
It wouldn't take too many "Northfields" south of the border to clean things up.

One would think eventually the general population will stand up and say "ENOUGH!!!"

Waddison.
 
One would think eventually the general population will stand up and say "ENOUGH!!!"

Where's Yul Brynner and the rest of "The Magnificent Seven" ?


Anyway, I DO NOT believe that there would be ANY lessening of violence in Mexico if any method devised to stop those cartels from obtaining weapons from the US were fully implimented, not for a minute.

It may be more convenient and less expensive to obtain some guns by and through illegal actions on the part of a few US dealers, but those guys will arm themselves as they see fit by other methods until either 1) the drugs are legalized in the US, or 2) Mexico gets a handle on it's corruption and stops the production and transport of the drugs in their country.

Imagine if the tables were turned. How long do you think such activities as there are could continue if the cartels were Americans exporting drugs into Mexico? I'd say not very long, and the stop would come about on this side of the border.
 
"This case is the most prominent prosecution of an American gun dealer since the United States promised Mexico two years ago it would clamp down on the smuggling of weapons across the border."

But Mexico promised to keep drugs and mexicans south of the border and we even pay them to do it. They have no problem at all smuggling drugs in from the south, why not guns?
 
OK, are we all ready for this? Everyone get out your tinfoil hat and place it upon your head......
Mexico and the USA both know full well that these guns come into mexico in much the same way that the drugs do, from the southern border(just like they get here I might add, from the south). The USA has made a habit of funding any whim the mexican Gov. wants funded as long as they can place "blame" on us the USA citizens. This being the case, we are much like a welfare WELL. When you need more, just go to the well and bring your bucket. The USA government is more than happy to oblige due to the fact that we have these 2 documents/treaties called S.P.P. and N.A.F.T.A.(north americas freedom traded away). Doing so serves well to infuse money into the mexican economy as well as devaluing the money here, bringing us ever closer to economic equality. This serves to facilitate the future introduction of the new continental currency the AMERO. Don't bother to use "snopes" to debunk these claims, they will, due to the fact that they are as left as the A.P. Just ask your European friends. When the EU was established, they were in denial much the same way we are now. Learn from history people.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top