NRA: 2A Yes, 1A No.

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Amazing that legitimate discussion is termed "bashing" on this forum.
Here is the GOA on the legislation and on the NRA's decisions

...and Lord knows GOA and the rest of the ankle biters would never try to bash the NRA as being "impure" or "compromising" or "sellouts" in an attempt to differentiate themselves as "philosophically pure" and "uncompromising" to split off NRA members for themselves.

More to the point, GOA and the rest are supposed to be fighting for the same goals as the NRA. So why the circular firing squads surrounding the one group that consistently carries the ball across the goal line?

This discussion reminds me of the controversy over military tactics in the 18th century, where the Brits thought it was "dishonorable" or "unprincipled" not to fight in rigid linear formations, and the American colonists said, "Let's do whatever works."

Is it better to be "principled" and lose – or to be practical and win ... or at least live on to fight another day?

There's a reason the NRA is considered the most effective lobbying organization in Washington – because they know what works.

As for Monday-morning armchair quarterbacks, I trust them about as far as I can throw them.
 
Amazing that legitimate discussion is termed "bashing" on this forum.

Legitimate discussion is fine. However you do not seem to discuss anything. You simply make posts that...let's see how to put this...BASH the NRA for not being something it isn't. It's like buying a cat and then being upset that it doesn't act more like a dog. If you want to discuss the NRA's stated purpose as many of us and the NRA have laid out, great! Let's discuss that then. If you want to discuss how 2A will be affected by this bill, great! Let's talk about it.

But you seem to want to discuss 1A. Well, like the NRA, TheHighRoad isn't really a 1A site. It is a RKBA site.



I resigned my membership due to that double-talking letter the sent via email arguing that they are actually trying to PROTECT the 1A. If they are willing to lie to their membership like that then I want no part. I'm not willing to lose one right just to protect another.

Why do I doubt the veracity of this? Oh right, because the NRA posted on its site its exact purpose for its members and haters to all read. Perhaps it needs posted again so everyone here gets another chance to read it:

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?ID=13902
STATEMENT FROM THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION ON H.R. 5175, THE DISCLOSE ACT

Tuesday, June 15, 2010

The National Rifle Association believes that any restrictions on the political speech of Americans are unconstitutional.

In the past, through the courts and in Congress, the NRA has opposed any effort to restrict the rights of its four million members to speak and have their voices heard on behalf of gun owners nationwide.

The NRA’s opposition to restrictions on political speech includes its May 26, 2010 letter to Members of Congress expressing strong concerns about H.R. 5175, the DISCLOSE Act. As it stood at the time of that letter, the measure would have undermined or obliterated virtually all of the NRA’s right to free political speech and, therefore, jeopardized the Second Amendment rights of every law-abiding American.

The most potent defense of the Second Amendment requires the most adamant exercise of the First Amendment. The NRA stands absolutely obligated to its members to ensure maximum access to the First Amendment, in order to protect and preserve the freedom of the Second Amendment.

The NRA must preserve its ability to speak. It cannot risk a strategy that would deny its rights, for the Second Amendment cannot be defended without them.

Thus, the NRA’s first obligation must be to its members and to its most ardent defense of firearms freedom for America’s lawful gun owners.

On June 14, 2010, Democratic leadership in the U.S. House of Representatives pledged that H.R. 5175 would be amended to exempt groups like the NRA, that meet certain criteria, from its onerous restrictions on political speech. As a result, and as long as that remains the case, the NRA will not be involved in final consideration of the House bill.

The NRA cannot defend the Second Amendment from the attacks we face in the local, state, federal, international and judicial arenas without the ability to speak. We will not allow ourselves to be silenced while the national news media, politicians and others are allowed to attack us freely.

The NRA will continue to fight for its right to speak out in defense of the Second Amendment. Any efforts to silence the political speech of NRA members will, as has been the case in the past, be met with strong opposition.

---nra---
 
Just for everyone who is really interested, here's the letter from the NRA to Congress. Sorry about the length:
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=5888

NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox's Letter to Members of Congress on H.R. 5175, the Disclose Act

Thursday, June 10, 2010


http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/DiscloseAct52710.pdf

May 26, 2010

Dear Member of Congress:

I am writing to express the National Rifle Association's strong concerns with H.R. 5175, the DISCLOSE Act, as well as our opposition to this bill in its current form. It is our sincere hope that these concerns will be addressed as this legislation is considered by the full House.

Earlier this year, in Citizens United v. FEC, the Supreme Court struck down the ban on certain political speech by nonprofit membership associations such as the NRA. In an attempt to characterize that ruling as something other than a vindication of the free speech and associational rights of millions of individual American citizens, H.R. 5175 attempts to reverse that decision.

Under the First Amendment, as recognized in a long line of Supreme Court cases, citizens have the right to speak and associate privately and anonymously. H.R. 5175, however, would require the NRA to turn our membership and donor lists over to the government and to disclose top donors on political advertisements. The bill would empower the Federal Election Commission to require the NRA to reveal private, internal discussions with our four million members about political communications. This unnecessary and burdensome requirement would leave it in the hands of government officials to make a determination about the type and amount of speech that would trigger potential criminal penalties.

H.R. 5175 creates a series of byzantine disclosure requirements that have the obvious effect of intimidating speech. The bill, for example, requires "top-five funder" disclosures on TV ads that mention candidates for federal office from 90 days prior to a primary election through the general election; "top-two funder" disclosure on similar radio ads during that period; "significant funder" and "top-five funder" disclosures on similar mass mailings during that period; and "significant funder" disclosure for similar "robocalls" during that period. Internet communications are covered if placed for a fee on another website, such as the use of banner ads that mention candidates for federal office. Even worse, no exceptions are included for organizations communicating with their members. This is far worse than current law and would severely restrict the various ways that the NRA communicates with our members and like-minded individuals.

While there are some groups that have run ads and attempted to hide their identities, the NRA isn't one of them. The NRA has been in existence since 1871. Our four million members across the country contribute for the purpose of speaking during elections and participating in the political process. When the NRA runs ads, we clearly and proudly put our name on them. Indeed, that's what our members expect us to do. There is no reason to include the NRA in overly burdensome disclosure and reporting requirements that are supposedly aimed at so-called "shadow" groups.

On the issue of reporting requirements, the bill mandates that the NRA electronically file all reports with the FEC within 24 hours of each expenditure. Within 24 hours of FEC posting of the reports, the NRA would be required to put a hyperlink on our website to the exact page on which the reports appear on the FEC's website - and keep that link: active for at least one year following the date of the general election. Independent Expenditure reports would have to disclose all individuals who donate $600 or more to the NRA during the reporting period and Electioneering Communication reports would have to disclose all individuals who donate $1,000 or more to the NRA during the reporting period. There are literally thousands of NRA donors who would meet those thresholds, so these requirements would create a significant and unwarranted burden.

Some have argued that under the bill, all the NRA would have to do to avoid disclosing our $600 or $1,000 level donors is to create a "Campaign-Related Activity Account." Were we to set up such an account, however, we would be precluded from transferring more than $10,000 from our general treasury to the account; all individual donors to that account would have to specifically designate their contributions in that manner and would have to limit their contributions to $9,999; the burdensome disclosure requirements for ads, mailings and robocalls would still apply; and the NRA would be prohibited from spending money on election activity from any other source - including the NRA's Political Victory Fund (our PAC). In sum, this provision is completely unworkable.

Unfortunately, H.R. 5175 attacks nearly all of the NRA's political speech by creating an arbitrary patchwork of unprecedented reporting and disclosure requirements. Under the bill, the NRA would have to track the political priorities of each of our individual members - all four million of them. The cost of complying with these requirements would be immense and significantly restrict our ability to speak.

As noted above, there is no legitimate reason to include the NRA in H.R. 5175's overly burdensome disclosure and reporting requirements. Therefore, we will continue to work with members from both parties to address these issues. Should our concerns not be resolved - and to date, they have not been - the NRA will have no choice but to oppose passage of this legislation.


Sincerely,
Chris W. Cox

Executive Director
 
Rmfcasey said:
The NRA spent millions to fight McCain-Finegold and will have to spend millions to fight this if it becomes law as the Dems are sure to try to silence the NRA.

Actually, the NRA won't have to spend millions fighting the DISCLOSE Act (like they did with McCain-Feingold); because they will be exempt. That will be nice, since post-McDonald, there will be plenty of places for the NRA to spend millions in litigation just on Second Amendment causes.

9teenEleven said:
I resigned my membership due to that double-talking letter the sent via email arguing that they are actually trying to PROTECT the 1A.

Two points to you:

1. Quitting an organization of 4 million members because you disagree with a single decision is probably a bad idea. You abandon a fairly powerful and well-known organization and leave it in the control of people who disagreed with you - so how is that going to change anything in the direction you want it to go?

2. The NRA said the were protecting the NRA's First Amendment rights. By being exempt from the DISCLOSE Act, they do protect their member's First Amendment rights.
 
Not everyone in the upper echelons of the NRA agrees with the exemption.

If you are an NRA member, remember her name during the BoD elections.

NRA exemption shows campaign disclosure bill's cynical, fatal flaws

By Cleta Mitchell
Thursday, June 17, 2010; A21

The cynical decision this week by House Democrats to exempt the National Rifle Association from the latest campaign finance regulatory scheme is itself a public disclosure. It reveals the true purpose of the perversely named Disclose Act (H.R. 5175): namely, to silence congressional critics in the 2010 elections.

The NRA "carve-out" reaffirms the wisdom of the First Amendment's precise language: "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech."

Congress can't help itself. Since 1798, with the Alien and Sedition Acts, incumbent politicians have yearned for legal duct tape for their opponents' mouths. The Disclose Act is a doozy of a muzzle.

For its part, the NRA -- on whose board of directors I serve -- rather than holding steadfastly to its historic principles of defending the Constitution and continuing its noble fight against government regulation of political speech instead opted for a political deal borne of self-interest in exchange for "neutrality" from the legislation's requirements. In doing so, the NRA has, sadly, affirmed the notion held by congressional Democrats (and some Republicans), liberal activists, the media establishment and, at least for now, a minority on the Supreme Court that First Amendment protections are subject to negotiation. The Second Amendment surely cannot be far behind.

Since the court's January decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that corporations cannot be constitutionally prohibited from making independent candidate-related expenditures, Democrats have been hyperventilating at the notion that corporations might spend millions of dollars criticizing them. To foreclose that possibility, the Disclose Act would impose onerous and complicated "disclosure" restrictions on organizations that dare to engage in constitutionally protected political speech and on corporations that dare to contribute to such organizations.

Democrats would effectively neuter the court's decision by requiring the names of multiple donors to be recited in ads (thus shrinking the time spent on actual speech), requiring the CEO of a corporate donor to personally appear in campaign-related ads, expanding the coverage period to virtually the entire election year, and including myriad other rules that the NRA described last month as "byzantine" and an "arbitrary patchwork of reporting and disclosure requirements."

The NRA's wheel-squeaking bought it an exemption from those requirements. Tea Party organizations arising spontaneously since 2009? Out of luck. Online organizations with large e-mail followings but perhaps no formal dues structure? Forget it.

Receiving less attention than the NRA "carve-out" but no less cynical is the bill's sop to organized labor: Aggregate contributions of $600 or more would be disclosed. Why start at $600? Why not $200 or, say, $500? Because most union members' dues aggregate less than $600 in a calendar year and thus members' contributions to labor's campaign-related spending wouldn't need to be disclosed . . . even to the union members whose dues are spent for political purposes.

In Citizens United, the court held that the First Amendment doesn't permit Congress to treat different corporations differently; that the protections afforded political speech arise from the Constitution, not Congress. Otherwise, it would be tantamount to a congressional power to license the speech of some while denying it to others.

The NRA carve-out is a clear example of a congressional speech license.

The ostensible purpose of the legislation is benign "disclosure," upheld in Citizens United as permissible under the First Amendment. Even conservative Justice Antonin Scalia has expressed skepticism about the constitutional infirmity of disclosure requirements in another case argued this term; Scalia intoned in oral argument that "running a democracy takes a certain amount of civic courage."

That's true. Indeed, the law upheld in Citizens United requires all donors to candidate-related expenditures to be publicly disclosed to the FEC in a timely manner.

But the Disclose Act isn't really intended to elicit information not currently required by law. The act serves notice on certain speakers that their involvement in the political process will exact a high price of regulation, penalty and notoriety, using disclosure and reporting as a subterfuge to chill their political speech and association.

It is only disclosure, say the authors. And box-cutters are only handy household tools . . . until they are used by terrorists to crash airplanes.

This is not just "disclosure." It is a scheme hatched by political insiders to eradicate disfavored speech. There is no room under the First Amendment for Congress to make deals on political speech, whether with the NRA or anyone else.

The writer is a partner at Foley & Lardner who works in campaign finance law and is a member of the NRA's board of directors.
 
For my own education. What has the GOA done beside print a news letter claiming lots of air time on Fox News?. I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but I've seen the NRA establish grass root movements but haven't seen anything like that from the GOA.
 
I have read this same argument on several gun forums, and I'll ask the same question here as I asked elsewhere. What exactly is or should the focus of the NRA be? They support and advocate for second amendment rights. Plain and simple. I belong to the NRA for that purpose, to defend my 2nd amendment rights. I belong to other organizations to defend my other rights. I don't expect these other groups to handle my 2nd amendment rights, nor should I expect them to be staunch supporters of that right.

If you bothered to read their statement, they are firm supporters of the 1st amendment, and consider it the only venue for them to defend our right to keep and bear arms. They were promised an exemption from the restrictions proposed in this single bill. They also said IF this proceeds to a point where they are under the provisions of this bill, they will reassert their objections to the bill.

The biggest controversy over this has been put out by competing 2nd amendment groups, groups who lack the clout to put pressure on legislators to secure an exemption. I'd say these rival groups, if they have a problem, have a recruiting drive to get in excess of 4 million members so they can go tell politicians they have that kind of numbers behind them. Until then, they'll whine and cry like spoiled kids because the NRA didn't get them included in an exemption. I don't support the NRA to carry a group that is unable to get membership numbers behind them to make a difference.

One big difference between the NRA and competing RKBA groups is that I have yet to hear the NRA bash any of them to try and draw off members. I know of few competing RKBA groups who don't, as a regularly used tactic to add numbers, bash the NRA for some inane reason or another.

These other groups that want to cry that we didn't carry them, I suggest they pull up their "Big Boy pants" and get on with it. If they're a superior group to the NRA, they'll draw numbers of members to levels people will listen to them. Trying to recruit by bashing another group just doesn't seem right to me, hence I will still proudly proclaim myself a NRA life member!
 
I just read that Pelosi has pulled the bill. I lost the link--will find another one for this info, or someone else can add it.

Jim H.
 
Not yet but its on life support.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/17/AR2010061705859.html
This is classic. The NRA screwed other gun rights orgs and cynically cut a deal for itself. Note to members here: Any org that will cut someone else's throat will cut yours as well when the time comes.
Now they have garnered the enmity of virtually every group that didnt get an exemption, and they are coming together to kill the bill.
You never do well by dealing cynically. And that is what the NRA has done here. Sorry to those die hard NRA can do no wrong supporters. The org has done many wonderful and important things. Like all of us they make bone head decisions sometimes. This was one of them and they should have been called on it.
 
That is absolutely the most revisionist view one could make. It is literally unbelievable that the NRA would cut a deal with the express intent of making itself so hated by other groups that they would band together to defeat the bill.
It doesn't even pass the laugh test.

Had they joined with other groups, like the NAACP, they would have been able to kill it while maintaining the moral high ground. Now they just look like Quislings.
 
So, what's the best cast to put to this discussion:

1. idealists vs. the realists?
2. naifs vs. the cynics?
3. feelers vs. thinkers?
I hate it when like-minded people devour each other. The energy would be better spent castigating the Brady bunch, or the VPC, or whoever...

Jim H.
 
That is absolutely the most revisionist view one could make

Hardly revisionist when it was a suggested outcome days ago. It was simply laughed at then as being unlikely to happen.

So which is it?

If you look at post #49 from Carl Brown you will see that he suggested the possibility and it got no traction.

Can't really call it revisionist now can you?

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6559988&postcount=49

It's entirely possible. The NRA isn't exactly new at this whole legislative game.

Regardless, the whole thing is dead and that's a win, and that should be the end of it.
 
Unless you have a statement from an NRA board member that this was their strategy then any suggestion it was intentionally done to torpedo the bill is revisionist.
This battle looks like it's over, which is a good thing. But counting up the losses, the NRA looks to me like a loser, having backed the Democrats. The diehards will ignore it on both sides.
 
But counting up the losses, the NRA looks to me like a loser, having backed the Democrats.

Where do you see that the NRA backed the Democrats?

Talk about revisionist.... Anyway, thread should be locked since it's a moot point now.

And that is sort of my point in posting above.

The suggestion that NRA did this intentionally is written off as silly because there is no proof, yet so many are willing to accept that NRA was in favor of this legislation when the same is true, there is no proof of that. Food for thought, not that anyone will change their minds.
 
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Hmmm, we had a bunch of more liberal groups who were neutral on this legislation; but decided to oppose it. I wonder what could have caused that?

We’ve opposed the carve-out on the principle of a carve out,” said David Willett, a spokesman for the Sierra Club, which had remained officially neutral on the bill until coming out against the bill after POLITICO revealed the NRA loophole.
Source

But surely the NRA could have never foreseen that them getting a special deal that only applied to them would outrage all kinds of Dem constituencies that hate the NRA and wouldn't get the same deal?

Though he conceded that losing the NRA’s opposition hurts his side’s chances of defeating the bill, he asserted that is more than offset by the liberal NRA opponents who will now oppose the bill.
Source

Who could have guessed that giving the NRA a special carve-out would so enrage liberal groups that the whole bill would die as they clamored for their own special carve outs? You'd have to be Cassandra to see that one coming, eh?

Whether intentional or not, let's look at the playing board - the bill is likely dead; but if it isn't the NRA has an exemption and the Dems owe them whether the bill passes or not. That is a pretty good outcome in my book.
 
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