expvideo
Member
The NRA hasn't gone far enough.
NRA gone too far?
- Thread starter zammyman
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Here's the funny thing: what's the difference between a criminal and the high and mighty who hate them?
The unluck of prosecution, circumstance, and conviction.
Every single member here is a criminal - every single citizen is on some level. It is literally impossible to keep up with the law and obey the letter 100% of the time.
Remember that if you've gotten a traffic ticket, parking violation, failed to pay sales tax on an internet order to your home state's IRS, or whatever..you're a criminal too.
The Second Amendment has nothing to do with criminals.
Pre-1968 felons who were not incarcerated could have weapons.
Why did we change? Fear of the black man and the civil rights movement - by making this handy change, we disarmed a large proportion of an entire race of people.
CoRoMo
Member
Everyone needs to realize that the Brady Campaign is free to sign up as members here and over at TFL, year after year, with no other purpose than to try and sway the RKBA supporters into their thinking.
It is certainly futile, but also frustrating, but unless the mods ban those who spout anti-2nd Amendment filth, we all better get used to this for the next four years or so.
It is certainly futile, but also frustrating, but unless the mods ban those who spout anti-2nd Amendment filth, we all better get used to this for the next four years or so.
In most respects, I welcome trolls and anti-Second Amendment people - it exposes weakness and illogic in our own ranks that is just as horribly prevalent.
We do not get stronger sitting in a pie in the sky environment - or in wanting to ban or regulate or restrict things for the same exact reason as our gun rights opponents.
Sato Ord
Member
I absolutely agree. If we are dealing with reasonable people our arguments should be heard and we can discuss the issue. However, the gun control people, for the most part, weren't reasoned into their way of thinking and they can't be reasoned out of it.
Gun control is the only thing I can think if where, when you give them what they ask for and it fails miserably they use that as absolute proof that they need more of it! They're often like addicts in denial, they keep doing what they've always done while expecting to get different results from the same old behavior.
There is a direct correlation between making it illegal for law abiding citizens to carry weapons and the subsequent increase in violent crimes in just about every major city in the U.S., especially violent crimes against women. However, as the crime rate continues to go up in places like Washington DC, New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles the antis continue to hold rallies to protest the proliferation of firearms by street gangs and other thugs. Never once do these people stop to realize that the criminals are already not allowed to have the weapons they possess. They just keep tightening the laws, and thus they tighten the noose around all our necks.
One might think that laws against carrying a hand gun would deter someone from doing so. After all, if I lived where it is illegal to carry a weapon I wouldn't do it, but I am concerned with things like not going to prison. If the criminal thought that way he wouldn't commit such a crime, and our whole society would be safer because the guy would use a knife or a baseball bat to rob his victims and not endanger the rest of us law abiding citizens who aren't armed. (I certainly hope everyone noticed the sarcasm in that last sentence.)
Criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. They don't give a tinker's damn how illegal it is to carry the weapon they use when they rob the local gas n' go. They aren't considering the long term consequences to their actions, they simply want what they can take right now, and the hell with anyone, or anything that gets in their way. You better hope that God is merciful with you if you find yourself between an armed junkie and his means of getting his fix, because it's a pretty safe bet the junkie won't show you any.
Law abiding citizens don't carry weapons for a feeling of power. They don't run around trying to be cops or super heroes. They simply want to be on equal footing in the unlikely event they find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. They also understand that having a weapon doesn't mean they're safe and will prevail if the worst happens, they simply want a reasonable chance of survival in a life or death situation, and the second amendment gives us the right to have that chance.
MikePGS
Member
Well said Sato! No reasonable person wants to shoot someone, but it sure beats being helpless and defenseless in the face of an attacker. Not only that but as I often say, shooting guns is FUN. I guess anti's just are too busy feeling self-important to realize that guns not only can save your life, but you can just shoot tin cans or targets and have a great time.
People that are on the terrorist watch list cannot legally be banned from owning a firearm unless or until they have been convicted in a court of law of something... This same logic, when use to try to discover terrorists is called Racial profiling, when used for virtually anything else is called discrimination and baseless innuendo and as far as I know, it violates due process and fairness. In this country you are innocent until PROVEN guilty....
As far as I know, Osama Bin Laden hasn't been convicted of crap.
EDIT -
As far as whether or not the NRA has "gone to far", you did not provide a construct. I am sure according to some they have, and others they haven't. My view is that they haven't gone far enough. I would prefer to be responsible for my own safety with the support of law enforcement instead of being victimized by law enforcement.
As far as I know, Osama Bin Laden hasn't been convicted of crap.
EDIT -
As far as whether or not the NRA has "gone to far", you did not provide a construct. I am sure according to some they have, and others they haven't. My view is that they haven't gone far enough. I would prefer to be responsible for my own safety with the support of law enforcement instead of being victimized by law enforcement.
ReadyontheRight
Member
Where is the option "The NRA does not go far enough to protect 2A rights"?
Z - I think you are getting so much flak over this because you are using a classic polling trick by splitting the "no" vote and not splitting the "yes" vote.
Z - I think you are getting so much flak over this because you are using a classic polling trick by splitting the "no" vote and not splitting the "yes" vote.
heavyshooter
Member
Don't Leave Zammy
The point of the site is both education and conversation. If we all agree with one another it makes for very lame conversation. We just +1 one another all day. We need as many perspectives as possible. We need you here. The Ad Hominem attacks, Straw Men, and Red Herrings are abnormal. You have chosen a topic that is dear to everyone so such remarks are more common. They don't want to admit it, but they love you and they recognize this is an in-house debate. Stick around, its a great site with great people.
Heavy
The point of the site is both education and conversation. If we all agree with one another it makes for very lame conversation. We just +1 one another all day. We need as many perspectives as possible. We need you here. The Ad Hominem attacks, Straw Men, and Red Herrings are abnormal. You have chosen a topic that is dear to everyone so such remarks are more common. They don't want to admit it, but they love you and they recognize this is an in-house debate. Stick around, its a great site with great people.
Heavy
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JImbothefiveth
Member
I'm not sure what you're even talking about, so I guessed you were talking about gun-show background checks. I voted the 3rd option, because I agree with the NRA that I should be able to sell my guns to a friend or relative, but violent felons shouldn't be able to have guns.
heavyshooter
Member
CoRoMo,
Speaking as a staunch lover of the 2nd Amendment, I would think that you would be open to such posts because it allows you unpack your arguments. Having said that, are you sure that Zammy is a troll. Just because he disagrees with the most common views on the site, he hates guns? As far as we know Zammy has more guns than any of us.
Guys lighten up. Heated discussion gives this site meaning.Heavy
ServiceSoon
Member
Above is why I think the NRA is correct in it's logic.
MikePGS
Member
What does the amount of guns you own have to do with anything? I'm sure that the president elect has more guns (at his disposal) than any of us, but does that mean he can't be anti-gun?
Timradcliffe345
member
rfurtkamp wrote:
I can't believe no one has responded to this.
Its rather simple. *I* don't break into people's houses and steal hierloom items to sell at pawnshops in order to get more money for meth and/or crack.
Those criminals that this high and mighty person hates did that to me in 2006.
The high and mighty people that hate criminals don't go around raping women.
I reject the notion that we are all one step away from being a criminal. Becoming a criminal is a fuction of character and personal choices.
-- John
I can't believe no one has responded to this.
Its rather simple. *I* don't break into people's houses and steal hierloom items to sell at pawnshops in order to get more money for meth and/or crack.
Those criminals that this high and mighty person hates did that to me in 2006.
The high and mighty people that hate criminals don't go around raping women.
I reject the notion that we are all one step away from being a criminal. Becoming a criminal is a fuction of character and personal choices.
-- John
slim76
Member
Hey Zammyman, when you get your dissertation finished, send me copy
Mike2
Member
I've been watching this thread for a little while now and have come to this conclusion: We as Americans enjoy freedoms, liberties and rights that most people don't. These freedoms, liberties, rights (lets not forget the privileges) are slowly but surely being eroded away in the name of security. We arrived at the point in our countries journey many years back where personal responsibility was thrown out the door. With over 18,000 gun laws already on the books and many thousands more on the state level, one would think that there should/ would be no gun crimes. Citizens, wake up!! More gun control/ laws/ rules/ regulations does not equal increased security!!! Changing peoples hearts and minds equals more security. Taking away God given rights does not, taking away my gun or anyone elses gun does not equal more security. One thing is surely a given, criminals, no matter what will always have weapons. Ban anything and everything but a criminal will always get a weapon. Change the heart of the criminal, teach him to fish and you change the criminal. Continue to provide free fish and you continue to feed the beast who WILL destroy you. Rome was destroyed from within, as we are being today. Right before our eyes, we are witnessing the slow death of our nation............Liberalism/ communism/ socialism be damned!! The NRA has not gone far enough!!
Criminal legally and criminal in vocation are two completely different things.
Since gun ownership is ultimately about legality these days, and a stroke of a pen turns trivial things into prohibited offenses....
This is why I do not support banning anyone safe to be on the street from having a firearm. The minute the average gun owner was AOK with keeping them from the 'felon' boogeyman (who by our admission en masse will get them *anyway*), the door was opened to further restrict ownership and legal possession. By all means, punish the living daylight out of those who misuse firearms. Punish the living daylights out of people who abuse automobiles, or kitchen knives - but 'guns from criminals' is on par with 'it's for the children' in falsehoods of gun control.
It's not that the average person is a step away from being a raving mass murdering psychopath, but more that the difference between a 'prohibited person' and one with rights is so slim it it's sad, and that's what the Second Amendment is about.
CoRoMo
Member
Your post if full of assumption and inaccurate accusation. You have no idea which post prompted my post. You have no idea whom I may have been referring to. You assumed I was referring to Zammy. Your assumptions are telling. I never said that I wasn't open to their presence, you assumed that.
Deanimator
Member
Let's see. I've never:
Murdered anyone.
Robbed anyone.
Beaten a woman.
Burglarized a home or business.
Committed rape or child molestation.
Committed arson of a dwelling, occupied or otherwise.
Stolen a car.
Well, there's six differences between me and Alton Coleman, Ottis Toole, Al Capone, Charles Manson, John Muhammed, Jerome Finnegan, Tony Abbate, et al.
TEDDY
Member
2 nd
what does'nt any one understand???the right of the people shall not be infringed.nothing any where in the constitution about "felon"because when the inmate has completed his sentence he has his rights restored.all of them.
if you take any right away you must thak them all away.before WW2/1968.there were few laws,it is onluy a little step from freedom to criminal.and that step is laws.change the law and you have made new criminals.how many have come afowl of gun laws and are now felons.
as to training I have as much training as any leo.and far better training in gun handling.I am much older than most here,got my training in high school on a rifle club and shot in compitition against national teams and most times
was in the top 3 of first team.
as to the NRA the NRA is a training and national records keeper for the shooting sports.and it was ban pistols or mgs and the NRA went for MG and saved the pistols.I was born in 1924 so I have some knowledge of the past.I was ten in 1934 and started casting and reloading in 1937.
what does'nt any one understand???the right of the people shall not be infringed.nothing any where in the constitution about "felon"because when the inmate has completed his sentence he has his rights restored.all of them.
if you take any right away you must thak them all away.before WW2/1968.there were few laws,it is onluy a little step from freedom to criminal.and that step is laws.change the law and you have made new criminals.how many have come afowl of gun laws and are now felons.
as to training I have as much training as any leo.and far better training in gun handling.I am much older than most here,got my training in high school on a rifle club and shot in compitition against national teams and most times
was in the top 3 of first team.
as to the NRA the NRA is a training and national records keeper for the shooting sports.and it was ban pistols or mgs and the NRA went for MG and saved the pistols.I was born in 1924 so I have some knowledge of the past.I was ten in 1934 and started casting and reloading in 1937.
hairless_ape
Member
I think the biggest way in which the NRA fails is the manner in which it presents it's arguments. They blast the media for sensationalizing gun violence and crimes (rightfully so), but then they turn around and twist, take out of context, and exaggerate the position of our opponents. The only thing this accomplishes is making gun owners look like a bunch of whack job zealots...it's counter productive at best. Wayne LaPierre is my prime example. His op-ed pieces are so filled with rhetoric that the average person will never take him seriously. The NRA needs to learn that you don't need to convince gun owners that 2A infringement is a bad thing, you need to convince everyone else. Otherwise your legislative agenda will never go anywhere. NRA = fail, but for piss poor planning not misguided intentions.
"Wayne LaPierre is my prime example. His op-ed pieces are so filled with rhetoric that the average person will never take him seriously. The NRA needs to learn that you don't need to convince gun owners that 2A infringement is a bad thing, you need to convince everyone else."
Exactly my view. NRA is a great organization, but they need to change their tone.... not their positions, just their tone.
Exactly my view. NRA is a great organization, but they need to change their tone.... not their positions, just their tone.
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