NRA magazine : 380 equals 38 spl?

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An alternate test would be the hit ratio of the shooter with a .380 versus a .38 Spl, in equally concealable size handguns, under simulated stress (eg, using turning targets that present themselves for 2 seconds, randomly throw in shoot/don't shoot targets for funnsies). I suggest that paper stat would be more meaningful than tabulated bullet weight, velocity, kinetic energy, momentum and expansion ratio combined. Add reload time under simulated stress if the hit ratio is too low, just to be mean.
 
I like the Schwartz model, with over 700 data points it tweaks the MacPherson model even further resulting in more accurate, precise penetration/crush cavity computations.

I'm not sure how the author arrived at his above average terminal performance level choices, but the 45 auto 230gr JHPs didn't make the cut. Regardless, the RA45TP with its relatively high momentum penetrated through over a 1/2" of tough bone with these rather spectacular results;

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7484841&postcount=4

Unfortunately given the author's arbitrary requirement of 1000fps and 1.5x expansion, it would not qualify for his "above average terminal performance" criteria. :(

With expansion to more than 2/3rds of inch (while retaining 99+% of its weight), there is nothing about the RA45TP's performance that I wouldn't call "above average". That the RA45TP doesn't make the 1000 fps "cut" while offering a predicted penetration of 15.3" (per the Schwartz bullet penetration model) in soft tissue casts doubt on the value of holding to such an arbitrary velocity standard.


Nowhere in the AR article does R. Mann use the term "calibrated" to describe the 10% ordnance gelatin that he used for these tests- it's not used in the "Notes" below any of the data tables, it's not present in the article's text and that absence speaks volumes.


The article in AR could've been so much better. Photos of at least some of the tests (within the magazine's space constraints) and the calibration BB (if the gelatin was ever claibrated) would've gone a long way towards making it a more authoritative piece. What a shame.
 
You're assuming too much, John...and the main assumption is that equal energy means equal performance.
I'm not assuming that at all. I'm saying that if you look at a 95gr standard pressure loading for the .38spl and a 95gr .380ACP, they're alike in terms of bullet diameter, bullet weight, bullet velocity, bullet momentum AND bullet energy.
And why restrict the .38 in order to stack the deck in favor of the smaller round?
I'm not trying to stack anything in favor of anything, the question was asked (are they equal), and I'm answering it thoroughly.

In light bullet weight loadings, standard pressure .38spl is equal to the .380ACP, if you extend the comparison to heavier bullets than the .380ACP can handle or to include .38spl +P then they are not equal.
If you're tasked with tearing down a brick wall, would you choose a framing hammer or a 10-pound sledge? While you may be able to swing the framing hammer fast enough to equal the energy of the sledge...or possibly exceed it...it's pretty clear which one will create the most structural damage to the wall per blow.
Well, first of all, the carpenter's hammer has a much shorter handle and that means that the head speed will be much slower than the head speed of a long-handled sledge since head speed is also a factor of handle length, not just the angular velocity of the swing. That means it will have much less speed and mass and therefore much less momentum AND much less energy.

If we assume that the hammers both have about the same handle length, then a person of reasonable strength would be able to swing both hammers with roughly the same head speed. You would expect to get a faster swing with the lighter hammer, but probably not even a 2x improvement. For the heck of it, let's assume a 2x speed advantage for the lighter hammer. Since the head of the sledge weighs at least 10x more than the head of the carpenter's but the swing speed is only 2x slower, the heavier hammer head results in both more momentum (5x more) AND more energy (2.5x more) even though the head velocity is slower for the heavier hammer.

Basically, your problem, as stated, is meaningless because your assumptions don't follow. A typical carpenter's hammer doesn't have more velocity (due to the short handle) and certainly not more energy than a typical long-handled 10lb sledge. The 10lb sledge wins in every category. Even if we try to even things out with similar handle lengths, a long-handled carpenter's hammer still probably won't have more energy because you'd have to be able to swing it more than 3x faster to compensate for a 10x advantage in head mass that the sledge has.

So the reason the sledge is better for the task is because it wins in every category. The reason it seems like a better choice is because it is. It's not because momentum wins over energy because the smaller hammer doesn't have more energy.
If you're facing a charging Grizzly...would you feel better about the potential outcome with a .45-70 firing a solid lead 405 grain bullet...or a .22-250 firing a 60-grain hollow point?
Again, this is a very poor example. If you're implying that the 22-250 has a lot more energy and that's why someone might choose it, you'd be wrong. At only 1386fps, a 405gr .45-70 bullet will have more energy than a 3600fps 60gr bullet out of a 22-250 rifle. Again, the reason the .45-70 looks like the clear choice is that it IS the clear choice. With reasonable modern loadings it wins whether you want to look at bullet weight, bullet size, bullet momentum or bullet energy.
Velocity. Energy. Momentum. All these things are variable, as is the target whenever we shoot for blood. The only constant is bullet mass. The smart/successful gambler never bets on the variable. He puts his money on the sure thing. The constant..
The variances in velocity, energy and momentum from one shot to the next for a given load are trivial. If we're going to talk about trivial differences, then even mass varies somewhat from one bullet to the next since bullets are not all identical.
The only way to assure that the bullet performs the same way every time is to have one that doesn't do anything except penetrate the target. Then, the task is getting it to penetrate far enough to hit something important.
IF you have to choose between reliably sufficient penetration and expansion, then it makes sense to forego even the possibility of expansion in favor of guaranteed penetration. If you can have reliably sufficient penetration WITH expansion, it makes no sense to give up the expansion simply to make the penetration more consistent.
 
I based my first reply to this thread on KE.
Now...
Momentum.

In the article, Remington loads are used in both 380 and .38 Special.
Remington 380 Golden Saber 102 gr. @ 883 fps = .40 momentum / 177# KE
Remington .38 Special Golden Saber 125 gr. +P @ 883 fps = .49 momentum / 216# KE

As in my first example the .380 is generating just over 80% of the KE produced by the 38 special +P

Momentum? Just over 80% as well.

In the same article makes the 9mm Remington 115 gr. look awfully powerful in comparison to the 380 and .38 +P
Remington 9mm 115 JHP @ 1209 fps = .62 momentum / 373# KE

The 9mm is usually considered the minimum acceptable for SD / police service. ;)

The 380 doesn't equal the 38 special for KE or momentum, but I still have 80% of the performance and two more rounds in my pocket.

I do not view either the 38 special or 380 as a first choice primary carry round; they are either back-up or a compromise due to circumstances.
 
I based my first reply to this thread on KE.
Now...
Momentum.

In the article, Remington loads are used in both 380 and .38 Special.
Remington 380 Golden Saber 102 gr. @ 883 fps = .40 momentum / 177# KE
Remington .38 Special Golden Saber 125 gr. +P @ 883 fps = .49 momentum / 216# KE

As in my first example the .380 is generating just over 80% of the KE produced by the 38 special +P

Momentum? Just over 80% as well.

In the same article makes the 9mm Remington 115 gr. look awfully powerful in comparison to the 380 and .38 +P
Remington 9mm 115 JHP @ 1209 fps = .62 momentum / 373# KE

The 9mm is usually considered the minimum acceptable for SD / police service. ;)

The 380 doesn't equal the 38 special for KE or momentum, but I still have 80% of the performance and two more rounds in my pocket.

I do not view either the 38 special or 380 as a first choice primary carry round; they are either back-up or a compromise due to circumstances.
What is the upper bullet weight limit for the 380 doesn't even compare with what the 38 Special is capable of. I've handloaded and tested 135gr Gold Dots mid 1000s from a M64/3", 158gr SWCHPs can also be loaded to the same velocity levels; then there's the 170gr Keith bullet that's good for high 800s to low 900s for those who wish to trail carry the Special.
 
whenever you do ammo comparisons, you try to do 'like to like' and by doing so you immediately start biasing your report to show the two items are more similar than they really are. Of course there is risk on the other side as well...compare them in their most common form and risk misidentifying the true differential.

As has been already mentioned most likely this article took the standard array of 380 ammo and then found the subset of 38 special ammo that most closely matched the 380 ammo in bullet weights and designs...and then fired them out of a 38 snub.

After all, the 38-44 was a 38 special loaded up to the brim with modern powders, a 38 special that required an extra strong gun to shoot it. The 38-44 'heavy duty' lead to the 357 magnum. Before that there was the 38 special 'high velocity' which was a +P+ round before there was that kind of nomenclature. I am guessing they didn't test any of those against the 380.

Of course to be fair I remember reading about 15 years ago an article in a gun rag that was going to determine which was better, 45 ACP or 357 magnum. Article noted they were of relatively equal stopping power then timed how long it took people to drop 5 plates with a 1911 in 45acp and a 357 in a 4 inch revolver. The 1911 in 45 acp was faster and hence was crowned 'best'. However had they done the same test using a 1911 in 357 magnum (like the Coonan Arms one) and a revolver chambered in 45 acp, would the 45 acp still have been fastest?

Of course not.

What the test really showed was that a single actin semi-auto is faster than a double action revolver.


The 380 vs 38 special test may just be showing that a small semiauto using a round with a short powder stack is more efficient at capturing the potential energy in the powder than a small revolver using a cartridge with a long powder stack.
 
The article in American Rifleman is complete junk. It's disappointing that the NRA would present this garbage to it's membership.

Only one round of each cartridge was tested. No information was provided about the handgun used in each test (or a definition for the ambiguous barrel lengths described). No calibration data was provided for the ordinance gelatin used.

The author also cites discredited sources.

Bottom line: the information provided in the article is not credible.
 
Suffice it to say that you can manipulate any particular study of anything thereby resulting in "surprising" conclusions. I agree with a lot of the aforementioned in this thread in that most of the evidence shows that the .38sp is a better SD load than the .380acp. Yet, I am sure I could also perform a similar test that shows the .38sp to either meet or exceed the performance of the 9mm and then the 9mm over the .45acp and so on and so on in virtual perpetuity.

I have concluded that the study of ballistics is paradoxical in that it is the most seemingly empirical testing to be found but yet so apparently ambiguous at best leaving it up to that age old "gut-instinct" factor to determine what one will or will not stake his or hers life on.

My ex-wife used to tell me that men are with their ballistics as women are with their soap-operas :eek:. I don't agree with the ex on virtually anything but I think she may have been on to something there...?

Edited to add: No disrespect to the NRA Publication as I am an avid/fan reader.

-Cheers
 
Here's an insightful link to Buffalo Bore's website that objectively portrays the 380 as a personal defense caliber. Their testing of a non expanding 100gr lead flat point bullet showed 20" of gel penetration.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

By comparison, here is the result of the 38 Special 135gr Gold Dot I mentioned above.

M64/3"
1049fps impact velocity
0.494" expansion (1.39x)
135grs recovered weight
1.72oz crush cavity, Mpc
18.23" penetration

One of the premier researchers in the field of ballistic gel is Duncan MacPherson, yet the AR article author failed to mention him or his Wound Trauma Incapacitation book that a number of people, including myself, use as a primary source to gain a better understanding of WTI and terminal ballistics. If the author had used calibrated ballistic gel I expect he would have stated so early in his article. It would have been nice if the author had written a short explanation of the calibrating process and his methodology of testing.

Duncan MacPherson, in his WTI book, brings up the subject of using water as a testing medium and provides a bullet penetration graph in his book for the reader who wishes to do ammunition testing, but doesn't have access to ballistic gel.

I'm not sure if the WTI book is sold out or not, but a new publication, "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" simplifies captured bullet data into bullet penetration data. The above 135gr Gold Dot data was obtained using the QAS book as reference.

Of particular interest to readers of this thread, is that those who wish to test ammunition through their personal carries can now do so and obtain very accurate results simply by doing the math.

This is a good thread, while I don't own a 380, I can use the M64/3" for further testing if anyone is interested. Also, penetration data, including certain intermediate barriers, can be calculated for those who carry the 380, J-frames or other 38 platforms.
 
Here's an insightful link to Buffalo Bore's website that objectively portrays the 380 as a personal defense caliber. Their testing of a non expanding 100gr lead flat point bullet showed 20" of gel penetration.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

According to the Schwartz bullet penetration model, that .380 100 gr. LFP should penetrate to a depth of 23.71 inches; MacPherson's model puts it at 26.14 inches.

Either way, that'll leave a mark. :uhoh:
 
This discussion seems to have degraded between the "wheel gun" and the "auto loader" folks. Yes a wheel gun can take a broader range of loadings and not explode or fail (sometimes). The vast majority of people that carry a gun for SD will use commercial ammunition in the medium price range. As many times recommended it removes one possible thing to justify should there be legal action after a shooting.

Most people would admit that there is an overlap in between the 380ACP and 38SPL in terms of performance. Both of these calibers have a long record of sucessful use.

My personal preference is to not recommend either one. I do not personally like wheel guns and do not trust them in the smaller sizes. The 380 ACP I like in the larger guns like Baretta 84, nice soft shooting and accurate. It does not have the many advantages that the 9X19. The advantages of the 9 over the 380 ACP:
1) Practice ammo is much cheaper in 9mm (locally $10/50 vs $15/50)
2) 9mm has many more choices in high quality SD ammo
3) Performance meets FBI recommendations for SD usages
4) Many more good guns to choose from (both small and full sized)

My conslusion is that no article would be well received by all. Everyone would like their choice show up as the best. The article was a high level overview that offered a "rule of thumb" for ammo selection with examples of ammo that meet the rule and ammo that did not meet rule. I saw no bias to any one caliber or brand of ammo.


Following from "An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power"
by by Greg Ellifritz

380 ACP

# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

.38 Special

# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%
 
I'm in the same camp that it seems most are here. That is, I understand that the .38 Spl. is ballistically superior to the .380 ACP, and if I only get a maximum of 5 shots, I'll go with the .38 hands down. But.......there is no .38 Spl. that carries 7 rounds, weighs 10-1/2 ounces loaded, and is only 3/4" wide.

If I'm going to carry something too bulky to fit in my pocket, I feel there are better choices than .38 Spl. As much as I like my S&W M37 Chief's Special, it only gets carried when the mood strikes to pack a "classy" heater; Otherwise, I'd rather have my PF9, CA Bulldog .44, CS45, Witness Compact 10mm, G20, etc.
 
I'm in the same camp that it seems most are here. That is, I understand that the .38 Spl. is ballistically superior to the .380 ACP, and if I only get a maximum of 5 shots, I'll go with the .38 hands down. But.......there is no .38 Spl. that carries 7 rounds, weighs 10-1/2 ounces loaded, and is only 3/4" wide.

I agree with this analysis. My LCP gets carried frequently in the summer, and when I feel the need to carry something bigger a Kahr P45 is compact, one inch thick, and light.

My S&W Air-weight is in the safe and shot occasionally for nostalgia.
 
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