Nutty NC Crossbow Laws; Requirement for Pistol permit AND 4473?

[rantingredneck]

OK I've just come home from Bass Pro Shops in Charlotte (really Concord), NC and have had one of the most frustrating shopping experiences of my life.

The backstory:

My father in law who has been my hunting partner for 10+ years had open heart surgery last year. Triple bypass and pacemaker. He's doing well, but no longer has the strength to draw a bow. Per NC's game laws he has applied for and received a special disability permit allowing him to use a crossbow during the archery season for deer.

The legal issues:

A little known facet of NC's laws relating to firearms and weapons is that in order to purchase a crossbow you must obtain a pistol purchase permit from the sheriff's office in the county in which you live. Yes folks, the same permit issued for the purchase of a handgun is needed to purchase a crossbow. You can legally purchase a rifle or shotgun or recurve/compound bow without it, but there's just something extra dangerous about those newfangled crossbows that requires an extra level of control.

We were prepared for this, however silly it might be. We picked up his handgun purchase permit this morning on the way to Concord. We got to Bass Pro and the guy who sells the archery gear wasn't available (on lunch). We had to wait a half hour for him to get back. Then we asked a few questions about different models and he gave good answers but really seemed to be hard selling the 700-1000 models. My father in law is more of a 300-400 model kinda guy as am I. We settled on the purchase, a Horton Summit package with red dot, and headed for the checkout. Once we got to the checkout is where things got screwy.

The 4473?

OK I never in a million years expected to have to fill out a 4473 for a crossbow. It is not a firearm. Why does the ATF give a crap about it? You don't have to fill one out for a muzzleloader. That's more akin to a firearm than something that propels a bolt by way of a dacron string. I asked about this and the Bass Pro employee informed me that because NC, NJ and NYC were "restricted zones" for crossbows that the federal form had to be filled out too. That basically the feds have adopted the local/state laws restricting them. Beyond the fact that I felt really bad about NC being compared so closely to NJ and NYC when it comes to a weapon related issue.........we continued.

So, as I have done many times before in many gun shops I proceeded to help my FIL fill out the form. He has poor up close vision and even with glasses struggles with the fine print. Usually I fill out his demographic info and let him answer the list of yes/no's and sign. Never had a problem with this before. In fact, the forms that I have not filled out for him, his wife has! So the guy doesn't say boo about this yet, but when the manager gets up there to approve it he tells the manager that I filled out the form and my FIL signed it. The manager says that's a big no-no , but since it's already done, they want a copy of my DL too! At this point we've been up there for over an hour dealing with this so I relented and gave them the little pull out plastic and leather pouch out of my wallet that contains my DL and my CHL. The guy goes in the back and copies both and asks me to sign them! :banghead:

He then tells me to go back and cross out and correct the abbreviations NC and KY (FIL was born in Kentucky) as abbreviations aren't allowed on the 4473. Well duh, but NC and KY are accepted abbreviations used by all other government agencies and I've NEVER had that questioned either. I mention this to the employee and manager and they claim that because BassPro is so big they are subjected to greater scrutiny.

Sheesh!!

OK sorry for the rant

So, I guess the point of this was to point out how frustrating it can be to even buy a crossbow in NC, but also to ask. Is the 4473 really required here for this or did these guys just not know their posterier orifices from the proverbial gopher hole? Is it not OK for someone with low vision to receive assistance in filling out the form as long as they review the form and sign attesting to its accuracy? Hell, I'd wager that half the people in the US do that very thing with their taxes, is this any different? Should I have been required to provide them with my DL and CHL here?

 

[Gifted]

Huh. When I did the abbreviations on my first one, they took it and gave me a fresh form to fill out.

I'd look into the 4473 issue. The locals might require you to fill it out, but I don't think it's a federal requirement. Did they call it in?

 

[mike101]

You need a permit to purchase a handgun in NC? I'm shocked. Isn't NC still in the south? Sounds like it's turning into NJ.

 

[gunsmith]

and you people tell me CA is bad?

 

[pacodelahoya]

At this very moment, I am checking North Carolina off the list of states I would like to retire in. thanks for the heads up. *** is a pistol permit?

 

[30 cal slob]

3 letters:

W

T

F

 

[DMK]

Here's the applicable NC statute:
http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_52A.html

§ 14‑402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol or crossbow unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.

It is unlawful for any person or persons to receive from any postmaster, postal clerk, employee in the parcel post department, rural mail carrier, express agent or employee, railroad agent or employee within the State of North Carolina any pistol or crossbow without having in his or their possession and without exhibiting at the time of the delivery of the same and to the person delivering the same the permit from the sheriff as provided in G.S. 14‑403. Any person violating the provisions of this section is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

(b) This section does not apply to an antique firearm or an historic edged weapon.

(c) The following definitions apply in this section:

(1) Antique firearm. – Defined in G.S. 14‑409.11.

(2) Bolt. – A projectile made to be discharged from a crossbow. The bolt differs from an arrow in that the bolt is heavier and shorter than an arrow.

(3) Crossbow. – A mechanical device consisting of, but not limited to, strings, cables, and prods transversely mounted on either a shoulder or hand‑held stock. This device is mechanically held at full or partial draw and released by a trigger or similar mechanism that is incorporated into a stock or handle. When operated, the crossbow discharges a projectile known as a bolt.

(4) Historic edged weapon. – Defined in G.S. 14‑409.12. (1919, c. 197, s. 1; C.S., s. 5106; 1923, c. 106; 1947, c. 781; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2; 1971, c. 133, s. 2; 1979, c. 895, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 287, s. 1; c. 539, s. 284; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2004‑183, s. 1; 2004‑203, s. 1.)

§ 14‑403. Permit issued by sheriff; form of permit; expiration of permit.

The sheriffs of any and all counties of this State shall issue to any person, firm, or corporation in any county a license or permit to purchase or receive any weapon mentioned in this Article from any person, firm, or corporation offering to sell or dispose of the weapon. The license or permit shall expire five years from the date of issuance. The license or permit shall be in the following form:

North Carolina,

______________ County.

I, ______________, Sheriff of said County, do hereby certify that I have conducted a criminal background check of the applicant, ______________ whose place of residence is ______________ in ______________ (or) in ______________ Township, ______________ County, North Carolina, and have received no information to indicate that it would be a violation of State or federal law for the applicant to purchase, transfer, receive, or possess a handgun. The applicant has further satisfied me as to his, her (or) their good moral character. Therefore, a license or permit is issued to ______________ to purchase one pistol from any person, firm or corporation authorized to dispose of the same.

This license or permit expires five years from its date of issuance.

This ____ day of ____________, ________.

_____________________________________

Sheriff.

I think they are confused about the 4473, but it may be due to how they are interpreting this part:

§ 14‑406. Dealer to keep record of sales.

Every dealer in pistols and other weapons mentioned in this Article shall keep an accurate record of all sales thereof, including the name, place of residence, date of sale, etc., of each person, firm, or corporation to whom or which such sales are made, which record shall be open to the inspection of any duly constituted State, county or police officer, within this State. (1919, c. 197, s. 5; C.S., s. 5110; 1987, c. 115, s. 1.)

 

[FieroCDSP]

A 4473 is a FEDERAL FIREARMS FORM. It is not a form that can be used by a state for anything other than federally defined firearms. If the Feds come in to check their forms and they are not complete and correct (ie used for firearms), they're hosed. I'd call the store and talk to their manager. Based on what's in the above law, there is no requirement for a background check for a crossbow. I'd recommend to the store manager that they stop abusing a federal form and work up a simple "Bound Book" for the crossbows, like the one they are required to have for their firearms. Regardless, stop shopping there. They haven't bothered to read the law.

What the heck gets checked in the "Long Gun/Hand Gun" box?

 

[jselvy]

What the heck gets checked in the "Long Gun/Hand Gun" box?

Ya just have to write in /Not a Gun right?

Jefferson

 

[deadin]

Sounds to me like they are just piggybacking the Federal Form as it meets their needs for State record keeping. (Saves the State a little printing costs).
I would assume that they keep them separate from the "real" 4473's. The BATFE might not appreciate having to plow through a bunch of crossbow records during an audit.

 

[benEzra]

Isn't NC still in the south? Sounds like it's turning into NJ.

Historically, the South has had more stringent gun control than most of the U.S., with the presumed intent of making gun ownership difficult for minorities. That was definitely the idea behind the NC pistol purchase permit, which is only $5 but you usually have to apply in person at your local sheriff's office...imagine the intimidation factor for a black man in 1970, who has to show up at the county jail to ask for permission from his white good-ol'-boy sheriff to buy a handgun--permission which the sheriff can rather arbitrarily deny, since the criteria for denial are discretionary, and some sheriffs require written attestation that the applicant is of "good moral character," arbitrary long-term residence requirements, etc. Some legacies of Jim Crow still live, unfortunately.

NC was also one of the later states to enact shall-issue CCW, and some of the state "game lands" gun restrictions are downright paranoid.

On the other side of the coin, NC is culturally and politically a pretty pro-gun state, and the laws for long guns are pretty good. A big part of the reason that NC elected a Dem governor 55/45 and simultaneously rejected a Dem presidential ticket 45/55 in 2004 was that the former is pro-gun and the latter was anti.

 

[obxned]

and they still won't let me carry a concealed cross-bow.

 

[madmike]

AFAIK, it's ILLEGAL to use a 4473 for any other purpose, nor are you required to offer much of that information (SSN, etc) for said purchase.

Inform them of their mistake.

Never shop there again.

 

[cane]

Just for your information. About 10-12 yrs ago a young male subject shot a young female in a piedmont city subsidized apartment complex. As a knee jerk reaction the state representative from that district introduced the bill requiring a pistol permit for a crossbow. When I lived in NC, I too qualified for a permit to hunt with a crossbow. Never figured out how I was supposed to cock a 150lb crossbow, and lug an 8lb piece of gear through the woods instead of my #45 2lb Bear recurve.

 

[madmike]

That's still a state issue, not a fed, and doesn't involve a 4473.

 

[Professor K]

You should have just ordered it online, to save the trouble.

 

[rantingredneck]

Just for your information. About 10-12 yrs ago a young male subject shot a young female in a piedmont city subsidized apartment complex. As a knee jerk reaction the state representative from that district introduced the bill requiring a pistol permit for a crossbow. When I lived in NC, I too qualified for a permit to hunt with a crossbow. Never figured out how I was supposed to cock a 150lb crossbow, and lug an 8lb piece of gear through the woods instead of my #45 2lb Bear recurve.

I wasn't aware of that. So one crossbow killing warrants permits. The NC legislature in action, folks.

My father in law can't pull the bow because of the chest muscles and sternum that were split for the surgery. He just can't do it anymore. Using a rope cocker, though he can use his back muscles to cock the crossbow. The rope cocker cuts the weight by about half by using a double pulley system. If that gets too much for him he can switch to a mechanical crank.

 

[madmike]

Or he can get a break-cocker and use his WEIGHT to cock it.

 

[Joe Leland]

When I went through the CCW Instructor's class last year, the pistol permit law was explained to us as well as the crossbow permit law. We were told that the domestic incident with the crossbow which led to the law change was drug related. We were also told that the suspect used a crossbow PISTOL. You do not need to fill out a 4473 to purchase a crossbow in NC, only a permit issued by the sheriff in the county of your residence. My local dealer just sold one this week and he told me that the 4473 was a federal form and had no bearing on state law. Are crossbows serial numbered? Hard to identify them if they aren't.

 

[sansone]

the 4473 isn't serial numbered so if they didn't like the way you filled it out they could have given you another one. (we get them free).. as "gifted" asked did they call it in? is the crossbow serial numbered? I am guessing the 4473 is not federally required. maybe the retailer is being more restrictive than the law requires. yes NC requires a pistol permit from the local sherrif. they are cheap and easy to get but still make me question if NC is a yankee state

 

[Steelcore]

God this has to be one of the stupidest gunstore employees of all time.4473's are for firearms not crossbows.I hope the ATF catches this at their next inspection and gigs them for it.I wouldn't have filled it out.

 

[madmike]

I am guessing the 4473 is not federally required.

No guess about it. The 4473 is not related to state issues or crossbows and may not legally be used for such. The ATF will likely be VERY unhappy to find them in the files because it's a procedural error and creates a lot of work for them.

Of course, that part amuses me.

But I'd hate to see the store or the buyer hassled.