NY Business Owner Kills two Robbers

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Adrenaline Dump

. . . hostage is allowed to drag dead body of shooter outside and beat on his corpse while screaming obscenities . . .
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"Allowed" may be too strong a word. You did read what happened to him when the cops showed up, yes?

Understandable, however.

Dude clubs you with a pistol. You are certain you're about to die. Suddenly there's a huge BANG! in the room. Your heart stops. You realize you haven't been shot. Then the adrenaline dump begins in earnest.

I would imagine dragging the now-dead thug outside was not a calculated act, but more of a reflexive thing -- scaled way up -- the way you might fling a sandwich away once you discovered it was covered in ants. I've seen some pretty violent reactions to nothing more than a spider or wasp -- total abdication of reason -- never mind something as traumatic as violent assault on one's person.

Somebody whacks me upside the head, followed by a gun going off, I'm not sure what my state of mind would be. Not sure I'd be able to recall later, either.

 
at least 2 suspects shot in the back, 1 inside the rest fleeing the scene, 1st suspects body is moved...Im not saying I woudlnt have fired on someone if they threatened my friends and coworkers but it just dosent seem like an open and shut case of self defense.
 
Code: 
3 unarmed robbers shot, 1 killed, gunman killed

Erik, when a guy is pointing a pistol at you, it is hard to discern whether his three buddies are armed (and just not showing their weapons) or not. Furthermore, it is hard to determine, when the shooting starts, whether a group of robbers are dodging, seeking cover to return fire, or actually intent on leaving the scene. To have waited to determine their intent could have cost him his life. Even in New York, I don't see them questioning the fact that he continued shooting after hitting the first robber, especially as quickly as it went down.

As to the actions of the guy beating and kicking a dead man, those actions are not the owners actions and I see no burden of the owner to stop the actions of another man who has just been seconds away from losing his life to the punk. I don't condone the man's actions, but I think that is the time to wait and let the police intervene. (Who knows how WE would have responded - adrenaline is a potent instigator!)
 
Even in New York, I don't see them questioning the fact that he continued shooting after hitting the first robber, especially as quickly as it went down.
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I dont know what thier laws are on firing on someone that you cannot determine is armed. thats why I would on the phone, on instant messenger, sending faxes and digging a hole under a lawyers office.

As to the actions of the guy beating and kicking a dead man, those actions are not the owners actions and I see no burden of the owner to stop the actions of another man who has just been seconds away from losing his life to the punk. I don't condone the man's actions, but I think that is the time to wait and let the police intervene.
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I am in complete agreement with you. Im just looking at this like a left leaning DA might, what could they stack against the guy, you know? I applaude him for his actions. He may have very well saved one of his coworkers lives.
 
Since one guy was armed, the court is likely to treat all suspects as being armed. It's not like you can be in a situation like this, notice that one of the perpetrators is armed, and also instantly determine that the others are unarmed. We're all Monday morning quarterbacks here, but at least try to use your imagination from the couch view.

Anyway, I agree that this case is not an easy slam dunk, no fault, self-defense. Few cases are! Go look for the prototypical slam dunk, no fault, self-defense case in real life. If you find one, then some of the facts are definitely omitted. There are always going to be some facts that a skilled lawyer can exploit, on either side.
 
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Reminds me of a song

"That old wheel is gonna roll around once more
When it does it will even up the score
Don’t be weak: as they sew, they will reap
Turn the other cheek and don’t give in
That old wheel will roll around again"
-Johnny Cash
 
It's great that this small business owner was able to protect something he cared about that was built over many years. Maybe more 'thugs' will get the message that it is NOT OK to rob and beat innocent people because they are weaker, older, richer, etc.

I was just in a NY jewelry store where the owners were open carrying. I was also recently in a NY hardware store where they had a sign that said 'we don't call 911'. Below the sign was a wood carving of a revolver. I inquired about the sign with a smile...the owner told me that all store employees carry...and that by the time the police arrive it's too late.

Good for them.
 
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Somebody whacks me upside the head, followed by a gun going off, I'm not sure what my state of mind would be. Not sure I'd be able to recall later, either.
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What I was thinking. I can't even remember what I said to a guy who attempted to carjack?/get a ride from me when I jumped out yelling at him.
 
What are the New York laws regarding the shipping of shotgun ammo?

I'd like to send Gus a box of buckshot and a thank you note.

No, really.;)
 
August 15, 2009
Back at Work After a Deadly Stand in Harlem
By CHRISTINE HAUGHNEY
Charles Augusto Jr. was more than busy when he started working at Kaplan Brothers Blue Flame in 1960 for $75 a week, shuttling between the kitchens of hotels like the Plaza and the sprawling apartments of Astors and Rockefellers to repair their stoves.

But lately, restaurants have been closing more than opening. On Thursday, Mr. Augusto sold only one item, a deep fryer, and by 3 p.m. he and his two workers were settling into a sluggish afternoon in Harlem.

Four men broke the silence by pushing their way past the scrawled sign that states “Abandon all hope ye who enter here.” Ignoring Mr. Augusto’s pleas that there was no money around — the one customer had paid by check — the men, one armed with a gun, began to struggle with one of his workers and apparently wrote off Mr. Augusto as an old man not worth their trouble.

Left alone, he grabbed a Winchester pump-action shotgun he had kept around since the store was robbed 20 years ago. He was not sure it would even work. It worked, three times.

Seconds later, two of the robbers were dead, the other two seriously hurt, and Mr. Augusto was being hailed as a neighborhood hero.

He is one of the thousands of workers and residents who stayed put in Harlem through the neighborhood’s most troubled days, its sputtering revival, and the latest downturn. Just two years ago, Mr. Augusto, who became an owner of the company in 1978, and his partner turned down offers to sell their two buildings on West 125th Street, including the one that houses the store, for $9 million, an amount it would be unlikely to fetch today.

But Mr. Augusto, who is 72, was back at the store on Friday, in his navy blue work clothes. “I’ve been here 50 years,” he said. “I don’t really want to go nowhere. What do I do then?” he asked. “I’m not going to let these hoodlums run me out of here.”

The news of the shootings alarmed many of the business owners, workers and residents who believed that Harlem had left its feeling of constant danger behind. A Citarella gourmet supermarket now does business a block away from Blue Flame. In 2007, Steven Buckwald, owner of Surroundings Flowers and Events, moved his commercial operations from 79th Street to a building around the corner from Mr. Augusto’s store because he thought the neighborhood had become safer. On Friday, he found himself handing over surveillance footage to the police.

“It was just developing this safe, changed image,” he said. “I do hope that it’s a very temporary setback.”

Adrienne Knox, a 55-year-old school lunch helper, echoed the feeling of many residents — not to mention hundreds of comments on local blogs and newspaper Web sites — when she said that Mr. Augusto’s actions might give some criminals pause.

“Even before the recession, there’s always been altercations in Harlem,” she said. “But what he did out there, nobody’s going to come around messing with nobody around here.”

While Mr. Augusto, who was born in Yonkers to parents of Dutch, Irish, English and Italian descent, is by no means troubled financially, he described himself as a person whose life had dealt him his share of blows. About 12 years ago, his son committed suicide. Mr. Augusto called his years as a young man in the Coast Guard “the only time I had any fun in my whole life.” He said he has not been able to pay himself since January.

Mr. Augusto bought out half of the store in 1978 and kept its name — the actual Kaplan brothers had not owned it for years — to make sure he retained its longtime customers. Twenty years ago, the store was robbed at gunpoint, so his partner, Michael Gluck, got a license for a shotgun and had a gate added in front of the shop entrance. There were other events: a burglar broke in and burned through the safe, the store’s truck was hijacked, an employee was held up on the way to the bank. But Mr. Augusto stayed because he thought the neighborhood was improving.

“It’s safer than it used to be during the ’60s,” he said. “Then, there were riots.”

He never made the business look desirable to robbers. The untiled floors are littered with cigarette butts. Some of the drawers of Mr. Augusto’s wooden desk are broken. The shelves are filled with dust-covered stove parts like burners, knobs, springs and deep fryers. He keeps a can of Raid and a fly swatter close.

Neighbors said Mr. Augusto was known to give young men temporary work loading and unloading trucks. About 17 years ago, he hired a teenager named J. B. Now 35, J. B., who declined to give his full name, earns $25 an hour, though because business is slow, neighbors said, he spends much of his time sitting in front of the shop reading the Bible.

On Thursday afternoon, Mr. Augusto said, the four men set upon J. B. after Mr. Augusto told them there was nothing worth stealing. J. B., too, came to work on Friday, fielding calls from friends and from his sister, who asked if he would still move her to Virginia this weekend.

“If it weren’t for Gus — ” said J. B. He paused, then alluded to one of the men who had attacked him. “Better him with a tag on his toe than my mother planning a funeral for me.”

People from the neighborhood walked by Friday to study the blood and the bullet holes in the glass of the front door. Mr. Augusto received calls from a niece, a Garland Stove company executive and a stranger saying the city should have a parade for him. His wife also called from their home in Irvington, N.Y., in Westchester County, still worried about him.

The news of the shooting did not bring him any new business.

On Friday, the police identified the two men who died as James Morgan, 29, and Raylin Footmon, 21, both of East Harlem. Bernard Witherspoon, 22, of East Harlem, and Shamel McCloud, 21, of East Elmhurst, Queens, were in stable condition at St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital Center. The police said they would be charged with robbery.

Despite all the congratulations, Mr. Augusto said he wished that the men had left when he urged them to and that he would not have had to use the shotgun.

“I know the pain these people must feel,” he said, referring to the families of the two who were killed. “I don’t know what feels worse, now or when my only son died.”

Al Baker, Javier C. Hernandez and Nate Schweber contributed reporting.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/15/nyregion/15gus.html?_r=1&hpw
 
The two survivors should be charged with murder, as well as robbery!! After all the two dead youths "Were turning their lives around" not been said yet but wait for it.
 
for THR members and lurkers,

it may be informative to read the original report and the related comments posted by NYT readers.

Here is the link to that article; the comments follow.

Those comments range from the expected sorrow-for-the-victims on up, and nearly all (imagined) issues for this incident have been discussed. It is worthwhile to note that Augusto appears to be on his way to becoming the sort of folk hero Bernie Goetz was.

The same sort of Monday-morning quarterbacking shows up in the comments just as some of you have done here. From what I can tell, these comments are really little more than the social lubricant of forum discourse, and they enable forum participants to bond without providing any worthwhile observation to the actual incident. Nonetheless, they do provide insight to the mindset of those of us unwilling to give credit to an astounding feat of self-defense.

Jim H.
 
This is being discussed on Fox News right now. The individual that is being interviewed satated that the possibility of a civil suit is very real and that raising money to support the legal fund of Charles Augusto has already been looked into. Geraldo Rivera also said he would like to express his condolencases to the familys of the the deceased.
 
the crappy part that I didn't like was the mention of possible misdemeanor charges...***?!? :banghead: don't the blood sucking presecutors have any common sense or common decency?!? charge an elderly 72 year old person who rightfully defended life in a time of crisis...that really speaks volumes about priorities in today's world :cuss:
 
Erik M said:
This is being discussed on Fox News right now. The individual that is being interviewed satated that the possibility of a civil suit is very real and that raising money to support the legal fund of Charles Augusto has already been looked into. Geraldo Rivera also said he would like to express his condolencases to the familys of the the deceased.
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Like Geraldo, I too feel sorry for the victim's families, but not for the fact they are now deceased or injured. I feel pity for parents whose children have become nothing more than petty thieves, and hope that someday criminals like this realize how their actions create more victims than they can even know.

This is not meant to be a "bleeding heart" post giving sympathy for criminals, but rather I think I can understand the concerned thoughts I would have about someone's family I had shot in self-defense. It's just one thing that comes along with the scope and responsibility of carrying and/or using a firearm for protection. Our actions affect more than those who may try and prey on us, just as their actions have affects on those far beyond just their intended victims.

All of that said, I wouldn't be a member of this forum if I disagreed even slightly with Gus's actions.
 
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