NYC Subway shooter's firearm trace

[Bob Willman]

How did the ATF find the data that traced the purchase to Frank James from 11 years ago? That data would be on a Form 4473 held by the dealer's notebook in Columbus, Ohio on his premises unless he/she went out of business and submitted them to ATF. In that event the notebook should be on shelf somewhere.
The background check data from 11 years ago should not be on file either since it is supposed to be destroyed after a short time period.
To find that data in less than 24 hours leads me to believe that ATF may not be following the rules.

NRA Benefactor

 

[Fyrstyk]

The Government has to follow the rules???? Surly you jest.

 

[SharpDog]

I have had this happen to me when I had a pistol stolen.

Non-conspiracy scenario:

1. They have the serial #
2. They find the distributor from the mfg
3. They find the sales outlet from the distributor

Now, I'm in no way saying there's not an ATF ghost database, there probably is. But they have probable denial of their lies.

 

[Old Dog]

How did the ATF find the data that traced the purchase to Frank James from 11 years ago?

To find that data in less than 24 hours leads me to believe that ATF may not be following the rules.

You may be correct.
from one news story:
The vast manhunt for Mr. James, who has addresses in Philadelphia and Wisconsin, included a broad review of security cameras throughout the subway system; a more than 17-block wide ground canvass in Sunset Park for stores’ surveillance footage or other signs of Mr. James; and a search for information on the gun, which matched a serial number in federal records.

However, they found the rental truck, which he apparently rented in his own name. Did Ohio ever have any sort of gun registration?

 

[AlexanderA]

Basic tracing.

1. The police have the gun. From the markings on the gun, they know the manufacturer and serial number.
2. The ATF tracers call the manufacturer and find out when and to what distributor it was shipped.
3. Likewise, the chain is followed to the FFL dealer making the first retail sale.
4. The FFL dealer consults his "bound book" and identifies the first retail customer who bought the gun.

Luckily, it turned out that the customer in question is the prime suspect in the crime. (If the gun had changed hands multiple times after the first retail sale, the trail could go cold.)

Conspiracy theories about secret registries, retention of background check information, etc., are not necessary to explain what happened. Occam's Razor.

Two weird things about this case:

1. The suspect called the police tip line on himself. He wanted to be caught.
2. From a total of 33 shots fired, not a single fatality. In a crowded subway car. Like shooting fish in a barrel. The shooter had to be going out of his way to avoid hitting vitals.

 

[12Bravo20]

Basic tracing.

1. The police have the gun. From the markings on the gun, they know the manufacturer and serial number.
2. The ATF tracers call the manufacturer and find out when and to what distributor it was shipped.
3. Likewise, the chain is followed to the FFL dealer making the first retail sale.
4. The FFL dealer consults his "bound book" and identifies the first retail customer who bought the gun.

Luckily, it turned out that the customer in question is the prime suspect in the crime. (If the gun had changed hands multiple times after the first retail sale, the trail could go cold.)

So true.

In this type of situation, a trace can and is conducted quickly since he was the original purchaser and he never resold the firearm in question. No conspiracy theories here. Now if the firearms was sold multiple times in private sales or was stolen then sold on the black market, then all bets are off on a reliable trace.

 

[Jack Ryan]

If they recover a firearm STOLEN from you they sure seem to have a hard time figuring out who it belongs to.

 

[The Glockodile]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/who-buys-guns-and-hangs-onto-them.904138/

 

[CapnMac]

Remember, too, that 10 years is the least amount of time permitted for records retention. It is not the maximum.
An FFL can keep records as long as they care to.
And the FFL is allowed to keep those records electronically, and ditch paper hardcopy records after a decade.

Mind, what the "trace" told them is a different question. The alleged perp is in custody. So, what the selling FFL has to do with the present crime is a different question altogether.

 

[browneu]

What's the purpose of stating that he bought the gun in Columbus if it's a legal purchase? It makes my paranoia radar go wild in thinking they're going to make more out of this purchase than what it is.

 

[The Glockodile]

What's the purpose of stating that he bought the gun in Columbus if it's a legal purchase? It makes my paranoia radar go wild in thinking they're going to make more out of this purchase than what it is.

That's the giggly thrill of conspiracy theories!

Makes you pee in your pants, with all the excitement!

 

[WestKentucky]

The whole premise has played out repeatedly. Already described above. It happened locally about a decade ago. A cop had bought a gun, sold it and it was used in a crime. Guy has a big mouth and nagged about the FFL not fixing the registry when the gun got sold again through the same FFL. People who understand laughed at the guy. People who don’t understand lose their minds that the gun wasn’t re-registered when it got sold.

 

[Blkhrt13]

I know they have been keeping the 4473 in a database since the 90s. There has been twice they have called up about a gun that was sold by a closed dealer.

 

[SimonRL]

I know they have been keeping the 4473 in a database since the 90s. There has been twice they have called up about a gun that was sold by a closed dealer.

When the dealer closes the 4473s go to the ATF who digitize the forms and place them in a database. That’s common knowledge.

 

[armoredman]

Remember, too, that 10 years is the least amount of time permitted for records retention. It is not the maximum.
An FFL can keep records as long as they care to.
And the FFL is allowed to keep those records electronically, and ditch paper hardcopy records after a decade.

Mind, what the "trace" told them is a different question. The alleged perp is in custody. So, what the selling FFL has to do with the present crime is a different question altogether.

When I worked at an FFL 20 years ago, the rules from ATFE were minimum 20 years, then you can destroy the 4473 if you wish. However, Bidet announced yesterday that we are now back to the "retain forever" rule and as stated, when the FFL closes they ship the paper hard copies to ATFE for "disposition".

 

[N555]

Latest news is the guy who did it appears to have made an awkward, ultra low effort attempt at defacing the guns serial numbers found on the barrel and slide his gun.

 

[barnetmill]

Remember this was a most urgent case and the Feds whether they FBI or ATF put in maximum effort. I can believe that nothing underhanded was done here. The individual FFL registry and that is what it is worked as intended. The most man hours would be searching the bound records of the FFL. There is also some sort of digital record on a computer that my FFL has been using for years and I am not sure what it is. I am not sure how easy or quick it is to go through the records. His filled out 4473s may have been arranged, stored, or bound according to the date they were filled out. Point is, with several agents going over the records starting with the date shipped for that glock, within a day on site in most gunstores they can find that 4473 and the system worked just the way it was designed to work.

 

[jmorris]

Latest news is the guy who did it appears to have made an awkward, ultra low effort attempt at defacing the guns serial numbers found on the barrel and slide his gun.

And stamping numbers in alters metal much deeper than one would imagine. Even if one did remove them visibly, there are methods to still see what was there. Like acid etch and electron backscatter diffraction.

 

[John_R]

So it takes a day's work to trace a gun used in a crime, but it takes a year or more to approve a suppressor purchase.

 

[Elkins45]

When the dealer closes the 4473s go to the ATF who digitize the forms and place them in a database. That’s common knowledge.

It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's knowledge. I have read here from people I consider knowledgable that the paper forms are stored in shipping containers in a parking lot outside one of the ATF offices and that they aren't digitized.

 

[Jim Watson]

Reports are contradictory.
It would be no trick for the feds, given the gun and its serial number to go from manufacturer, to distributor, to dealer, to retail customer.
But there was one version that had the subject pistol bought second hand at a pawn shop, which would break the chain of bound book records. So either that is wrong and the offender got the gun new, or there is more record keeping and sharing than They want us to know about.

 

[AlexanderA]

defacing the guns serial numbers found on the barrel and slide his gun

The only serial number that matters is the one on the frame of the gun.

 

[AlexanderA]

Now if the firearms was sold multiple times in private sales or was stolen then sold on the black market, then all bets are off on a reliable trace.

The trace would still be unreliable even if the gun was later sold by an individual to an FFL dealer. Lacking a centralized registry, all traces rely on an unbroken chain of custody. Once the gun goes to the first retail buyer, a further trace depends on interviews with all the subsequent owners. If a subsequent owner cannot be found (or refuses to cooperate), then the trail goes dead. That's still true even if the gun finds its way back into the FFL system. There's no way to scan all dealer records by serial number. Tracing is transaction-based, not object-based.

 

[Jack Ryan]

The surprising thing I noticed about this incident is the perp using a 9mm, extended magazine, firing 33 shots or more, INSIDE A CROWDED SUBWAY CAR where NONE of his targets can escape and NO ONE DIED. Only about half the shots even wounded any one.

What does this say to the "quick second shot", "spray and pray", "MODERN 9mm is just as good as" and "9mm is more accurate", "accuracy by volume" crowds? Oh yeah, and he was STOPPED when his gun jammed. Was that a Glock Perfection moment?

 

[Jim Watson]

Empty headed newsie - Nobody died, he was obviously not shooting to kill.
Internet Tactician - If a Glock jammed, it must have been loaded with a cheap Korean magazine.