NYT article: "Concealed Carry's Body Count"

[ACP]

A lot of those VPC stats on CCWs shooting people are listed as "Pending," "suicide," or "unintentional."

Even many of the "convicted" listings are for people who used a gun to stop a viscous assault but were ultimately convicted of manslaughter.

Here's the most important point: this study covers nearly 8 YEARS, from May 2007 to February 2015 (7 years, 9 months.)

Meanwhile, according to the CDC, there were approx. 250,000 (est. 249, 887) homicides and suicides using a firearm in America from 2007 through 2014.

So we can thank the VPC for letting us know that CCW holders -- "the good guys" -- accounted for 0.28% of all firearms deaths in America over the past 8 years.

Less than one-third of one percent.

Sounds like a non-story to me if there ever was one.... and a great defense against more gun control.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I didn't read the article because of the title. Anytime I see a lead in like that or "Gun Violence" I just pass it by because I know where it's going.

If you want some solid unbiased stats without the sensationalism they're here.

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

Texas has done these studies since permitted CC was adopted in 96 because they truly wanted to see the effects of the new law. People who CC are saints compared to the general population.

 

[Sav .250]

The story teller gets to "form" the contents as they see fit.

Example...... Just look at both sides of the isle in Congress.

 

[Officers'Wife]

What is interesting me is I have a feed to the NYT. They are claiming 17 LEO's murdered by CCW holders yet I can't recalled even one story published. Am I a victim of insanely early onset Alzheimer or did NYT not report the stories to... protect the privacy of the family? suppressed by the NRA?

I'll tell them what I tell the climate change cultists... make your source data available and let me run my own stat analysis and then we will talk.

 

[rdhood]

I for one am glad they posted this article, because anyone with a calculator and a tentative understanding of statistics will see just how rare being shot

LOL. If that were the case, the country would be fiscal Republicans, and the US would not be in $18 Trillion of debt.

 

[sawdeanz]

Thanks for turning me on to this. It almost scared me until I remembered they were talking about over 7 years of stats and 11 million carriers. Also the article is extremely confusing, since they are trying so hard to show that these 700+ were shot by wild west cowboy CCWs and hammer home the fact that only 16 were self defense, but then they go and say that only 166 were convicted. So what about all the others? I assume they are accidental discharges or something.

I would encourage you to visit www.gunssavelives.net. I'm subscribed to the email listserv and every single day since I have been a subscriber I get an email with anywhere from 1 to a half dozen cases of self defense. This should be a conservative number as well since it relies on stories pulled from actual news sources. Of course this includes more than just CCW holders, and also highlights many cases where no one was killed.

 

[fanchisimo]

This might be to stand against the pro-ccw strides that have been occurring in the country in the recent years. It seems like nationwide reciprocity is a future possibility so they might be starting the anti-ccw campaign.

 

[Leanwolf]

OFFICER'S WIFE -" ... They are claiming 17 LEO's murdered by CCW holders yet I can't recalled even one story published. ..."

That is just another typical lie created by The New York Times (aka Pravda East). There is absolutely no verifiable source for their lies.

L.W.

 

[herrwalther]

LOL. If that were the case, the country would be fiscal Republicans, and the US would not be in $18 Trillion of debt.

That is a good point. I guess I was being a little too optimistic. The few people who I know read the NYT aren't exactly the brightest bulbs in the box. Which is probably why they read the NYT.

 

[HisStigness]

I couldn't even begin to cross examine that NYT article, with the amount of inaccurate studies, skewed data, and politically biased "journalists" that are out there these days (this is on both sides of the aisle by the way). I'm sure the truth lies somewhere beneath the massive pile of crap caused by people trying to dominate the political battlefield in an attempt to make their agenda a reality.

Am I the only one that noticed that the picture at the top of the article wasn't very relevant? Is the author trying to tell us that the nice looking North Dakota girl actually intends to carry that Ruger Mk. III target pistol for self defense (or more likely the homicide of innocent civilians or police officers)?

 

[orionengnr]

The main premise is that CCW advocates are lying about how often permit holders commit gun crimes.

Yeah, well, you don't have to take my word for it. You can be sure that the states keep track. Texas and Florida publish annual papers delineating the number of crimes committed by CCW/CHL holders annually. They are available on the web. I am guessing that others are as well.

The stats are not limited to gun crimes...and the numbers are vanishingly low.
As in, next to zero for any serious type of crime. IIRC, one homicide in TX since CHL became the law of the land. Yes, one. In nearly twenty years. Florida's numbers are very similar, as one might expect.

Law abiding citizens do not, as a rule, commit crimes. That should be self-evident, and it is to anyone who views it objectively, or thinks about it a bit.

Unfortunately, some do not and will not. Of course, they are also the ones who will not listen to facts or reason. Imagine that.

 

[tarosean]

The stats are not limited to gun crimes...and the numbers are vanishingly low.
As in, next to zero for any serious type of crime. IIRC, one homicide in TX since CHL became the law of the land. Yes, one. In nearly twenty years. Florida's numbers are very similar, as one might expect.

a few more than one...

TX lists CHL crime convictions vs statewide crime convictions.
2012-1996

http://dps.texas.gov/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

 

[JR47]

“Deaths in 544 concealed-carry shootings in 36 states and the District of Columbia, only 16 cases were eventually ruled lawful self-defense…”

Interesting since DC has only issued 8 CCW’s very recently. Kind of discredits the whole article.

“More gravely, the study found that the fatalities included 17 law enforcement officers shot by people with legal permits along with 705 slain civilians.”

Strange that no LEO fatalities and only a few civilian deaths by CCW holder have hit the anti-gun media that I can recall.

And 722 non-self defense deaths in eight years? Heck, that’s only a weekend total of non-CCW holder in Chicago.

Is it just me, or is it hard to come up with 722 deaths out of the quoted 544 concealed carry shootings? As far as only 16 being ruled "lawful self-defense", does that include "no bills" from Grand Juries?

I would also ask if any of those 16 cases involved lethal force against an LEO?

The math is wrong, and the statistics are also poorly done.

 

[rtroha]

What is interesting me is I have a feed to the NYT. They are claiming 17 LEO's murdered by CCW holders yet I can't recalled even one story published. Am I a victim of insanely early onset Alzheimer or did NYT not report the stories to... protect the privacy of the family? suppressed by the NRA?

At least one of these happened locally but I don't know if it made the news nationally.

All seven of the justices affirmed Ashford L. Thompson's conviction of aggravated murder for killing Miktarian in July 2008. Three justices, though, dissented on whether the death sentence was appropriate.

Miktarian stopped Thompson in his driveway for loud music and suspected drunken driving.

When Miktarian was handcuffing Thompson to place him under arrest, Thompson struggled, according to court records. Thompson had a permit to carry a concealed weapon and pulled the gun during the arrest.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2014/10/supreme_court_upholds_death_se.html

 

[bratsky]

His bias is clearly presented in the first sentence. He says " gun rights versus public safety" as if one negates the other. They are not at odds with each other

 

[bearcreek]

Those stats seem fairly believable to me. If they are, that means that 267 people out of around 11 million potentially killed people without good reason. That's an incredibly low number. The suicides are not relevant as a permit wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Perhaps they would like to stop police from carrying firearms as well since there are usually over 1000 people killed by them in the US each year.