NYT Article: Get Ready For The Swarm! Duplicate Threads Merged

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Think of them as latter-day Minutemen.

We're already here. Keep your powder dry boys and girls.

As for outposts, there are bases in almost (every?) state and Natl. Guard Armories even closer to everybody, at least around here. Staging areas aren't a problem. Command and control is the problem.

If I lived closer to a high value target I would be tempted to upgrade my truck gun, if the local laws allow such things. If I was panning the attack those laws would be one of the things I would consider.
 
Look what you can do with the right mouse button: :rolleyes:

The Coming Swarm


Oliver Munday and Ramell Ross


Times Topics: TerrorismWITH three Afghan government ministries in Kabul hit by simultaneous suicide attacks this week, by a total of just eight terrorists, it seems that a new “Mumbai model” of swarming, smaller-scale terrorist violence is emerging.

The basic concept is that hitting several targets at once, even with just a few fighters at each site, can cause fits for elite counterterrorist forces that are often manpower-heavy, far away and organized to deal with only one crisis at a time. This approach certainly worked in Mumbai, India, last November, where five two-man teams of Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives held the city hostage for two days, killing 179 people. The Indian security forces, many of which had to be flown in from New Delhi, simply had little ability to strike back at more than one site at a time.

While it’s true that the assaults in Kabul seem to be echoes of Mumbai, the fact is that Al Qaeda and its affiliates have been using these sorts of swarm tactics for several years. Jemaah Islamiyah — the group responsible for the Bali nightclub attack that killed 202 people in 2002 — mounted simultaneous attacks on 16 Christian churches in Indonesia on Christmas Eve in 2000, befuddling security forces.

Even 9/11 itself had swarm-like characteristics, as four small teams of Qaeda operatives simultaneously seized commercial aircraft and turned them into missiles, flummoxing all our defensive responses. In the years since, Al Qaeda has coordinated swarm attacks in Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Turkey, Yemen and elsewhere. And at the height of the insurgency in Iraq, terrorists repeatedly used swarms on targets as small as truck convoys and as large as whole cities.

This pattern suggests that Americans should brace for a coming swarm. Right now, most of our cities would be as hard-pressed as Mumbai was to deal with several simultaneous attacks. Our elite federal and military counterterrorist units would most likely find their responses slowed, to varying degrees, by distance and the need to clarify jurisdiction.

While the specifics of the federal counterterrorism strategy are classified, what is in the public record indicates that the plan contemplates having to deal with as many as three sites being simultaneously hit and using “overwhelming force” against the terrorists, which probably means mustering as many as 3,000 ground troops to the site. If that’s an accurate picture, it doesn’t bode well. We would most likely have far too few such elite units for dealing with a large number of small terrorist teams carrying out simultaneous attacks across a region or even a single city.

Nightmare possibilities include synchronized assaults on several shopping malls, high-rise office buildings or other places that have lots of people and relatively few exits. Another option would be to set loose half a dozen two-man sniper teams in some metropolitan area — you only have to recall the havoc caused by the Washington sniper in 2002 to imagine how huge a panic a slightly larger version of that form of terrorism would cause.

So how are swarms to be countered? The simplest way is to create many more units able to respond to simultaneous, small-scale attacks and spread them around the country. This means jettisoning the idea of overwhelming force in favor of small units that are not “elite” but rather “good enough” to tangle with terrorist teams. In dealing with swarms, economizing on force is essential.

We’ve actually had a good test case in Iraq over the past two years. Instead of responding to insurgent attacks by sending out large numbers of troops from distant operating bases, the military strategy is now based on hundreds of smaller outposts in which 40 or 50 American troops are permanently stationed and prepared to act swiftly against attackers. Indeed, their very presence in Iraqi communities is a big deterrent. It’s small surprise that overall violence across Iraq has dropped by about 80 percent in that period.

For the defense of American cities against terrorist swarms, the key would be to use local police officers as the first line of defense instead of relying on the military. The first step would be to create lots of small counterterrorism posts throughout urban areas instead of keeping police officers in large, centralized precinct houses. This is consistent with existing notions of community-based policing, and could even include an element of outreach to residents similar to that undertaken in the Sunni areas of Iraq — even if it were to mean taking the paradoxical turn of negotiating with gangs about security.

At the federal level, we should stop thinking in terms of moving thousands of troops across the country and instead distribute small response units far more widely. Cities, states and Washington should work out clear rules in advance for using military forces in a counterterrorist role, to avoid any bickering or delay during a crisis. Reserve and National Guard units should train and field many more units able to take on small teams of terrorist gunmen and bombers. Think of them as latter-day Minutemen.

Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Turkey and Yemen all responded to Qaeda attacks with similar “packetizing” initiatives involving the police and armed forces; and while that hasn’t eliminated swarm attacks, the terrorists have been far less effective and many lives have been saved.

As for Afghanistan, where the swarm has just arrived, there is still time to realize the merits of forming lots of small units and sprinkling them about in a countrywide network of outposts. As President Obama looks to send more troops to that war, let’s make sure the Pentagon does it the right way.

Yes, the swarm will be heading our way, too. We need to get smaller, closer and quicker. The sooner the better.
 
the article ignores the most basic of front-line defenses, a legal CHL holder!

The article goes even farther, to lead the reader away from the very idea of civilians defending themselves, by trivializing the heros of 9-11. It says of the 9-11 swarm style attack "flummoxing all our defensive responses" with total disregard for the passengers who took matters into their own hands saving the White House and perhaps everyone in it. An effective defensive response indeed.
 
NYPD Ruger Mini 14 Training for Mumbai Terrorist Attack

NYPD ESU Starts New Training Lessons from Mumbai Terrorist Attack

NYPD Training from Mumbai Terrorist Attack
New York, NY - Cops with helmets, heavy vests and assault rifles approached the building where hostages were being held. One barked orders as cops bounded across the street with military precision to cover each other at cross-angles.

They entered the building, secured it and located the hostages in the dark maze of rooms on the second floor. The captives were directed at each turn by cops who pointed and yelled, "Go this way. Keep your hands on your head! Go down the stairs!"

The tension eased when one cop added, "Dear" to the end of his "C'mon! Move it!"

The "hostages" - including a Daily News reporter - were safely escorted out of the building, and the team was told to stand down until the next scenario.

For the past two weeks, NYPD officers and detectives have been carrying out dozens of these tactical drills daily, practicing with Ruger Mini 14 assault rifles as they train to deal with a Mumbai-style attack on the city.

In November, 10 terrorists armed with automatic weapons and grenades killed at least 170 people and injured hundreds in a three-day siege in "the New York of India."

The group hit hotels and train stations and other high-profile buildings around the city with deadly precision.

"The Mumbai incident was a departure; we hadn't seen that type of attack," said Assistant Chief George Anderson, commanding officer of the Police Academy.

The trainees will be part of the Critical Incident Response Capacity (CIRC), to supplement the NYPD Emergency Service Unit, whose members are experts in heavy weapons and close-quarters combat.

The Mumbai seige taught cops that ESU wouldn't be enough for multiple, simultaneous attacks.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly ordered the new training because in the Mumbai incident, casualties mounted as local police were outgunned and unable to engage the terrorists. It took more than 12 hours for Indian commandos to arrive.

ESU Lt. Kenneth Beatty said the CIRC trainees - veterans from the Organized Crime Control Bureau - were doing movement drills: clearing hallways, learning to get hostages out quickly and learning how to spot terrorists mixed in with hostages.

It's real-life training on a simulated city street with two three-story buildings, parked cars and buses and even a No Parking sign at the police training facility in Rodman's Neck.

Cops usually come here to train in search warrants and firearms tactics for typical city crimes. Now they're drilling for urban warfare.

Sgt. John Doyle explained why the team members position themselves at cross-angles.

"I'm relying on him and he's relying on me to see each other's blind spots," he said.

There's good reason for the intimidating shouting at hostages.

"People tend to be nervous, scared and the key is to get control of them to guide them out as quickly as possible," Doyle said, standing amid the flurry of cops herding us out. "It's vital not to lose sight of them."

After each scenario, instructors critique the trainees, who wear 35-pound vests with the added weight of ammunition and flashlights as they run up and down stairs.

"We do 20 to 30 scenarios each day," Beatty said. Some include "simunition" - fake bullets.

The Police Academy also has begun introducing rookies to the use of automatic weapons.

The cops spend two days on these drills after two days of practicing on the firing range with the Ruger Mini 14, a 6 1/2-pound rifle that shoots .223-caliber bullets, which are about twice the length of a 9-mm. slug.

There was a deafening string of gunfire as a line of 20 cops shot into targets, the bullets hitting the pond and reeds beyond.

In one exercise, dummy bullets are put in the Mini 14, to teach trainees that if anything happens with the rifle, they are to drop it and go to the 9-mm. pistol on their belt.

Sgt. Steve Morrissey, supervisor of special weapons at the range, said rookies are being familiarized with assault weapons in case they have to use one.

In addition to the Mini 14, they're using the Colt M-4, which can be fired semi or fully automatic. Only ESU officers regularly carry M-4s.

"We're giving them the concepts needed to deal with a Mumbai-style incident," Beatty said.
 
practicing with Ruger Mini 14 assault rifles as they train to deal with a Mumbai-style attack on the city.

My guess would be they were AC-556's not Mini-14's. Notice they said assault rifle, not weapon, which in the case of the AC-556 would be the correct terminology.

Select fire model, still in production. They still sell pretty well with LE agencies around the country, which is kind of surprising. I think it's because the traditional look makes them less "military" looking.

I know the article called them out specifically as Mini-14's but I would be surprised if they were semi only. Guess it's possible, just seems odd. But it's NY :)
 
Hey if the A team uses em there good enough for NYPD, LOL just kidding but ive always wanted a selective fire ruger. Way cooler than a M4 or AK.
 
Are mini 14s really only 6.5 lbs? That's really light for a semi automatic rifle! It sure makes them sound a little tempting.

My assumption is that NYPD probably favors them because of the cost, rather than the PC hunting rifle looks. A mini 14 has always been cheaper than an AR-15, and when you have to arm literally thousands of officers, the end price tag matters.
 
I believe they are actually Mini-14's and not AC-556 MG's. And, from what I read, the "hunting rifle" look was one of the primary reason they were selected. The thinking was that a more military looking rilfe woudl look too, well, militaristic in the hands of the police.

This was prior to 9/11 and I understand they now use AR-15's as well.
 
I, too, have heard from several sources, one still an active/local LEO that recently attended training with NYPD that the rifles are, in fact, Mini-14s.
 
Remember, NYPD got the ten round magazines before the civilians were forced to have them. There was a fear of the cops having too much firepower when they transitioned from the revolver to the pistol.
 
THeir version of swat,,not called that have issued the standard Mini-14 for years,I wounder if they are allowing them in to the front line troops fingers??
 
While I applaud them in realizing that they need to train, I have to ask.......why would their regular SWAT guys not work, or do they just feel the need for more paramilitary units running around?
 
the article ignores the most basic of front-line defenses, a legal CHL holder!
A legal CHL holder (as opposed to an illegal CHL holder?) doesn't stand a chance against two Mumbai-style goblins armed with AK47s.

Wouldn't there be Constitutional issues with maintaining dozens or hundreds of military outposts throughout the U.S.?
Why? There have been hundreds of military outposts in the US for almost as long as there has been a country. So long as they're not used for domestic policework, I fail to see the constitutional issues (altho constitutional law isn't my strong point).

It says of the 9-11 swarm style attack "flummoxing all our defensive responses" with total disregard for the passengers who took matters into their own hands saving the White House and perhaps everyone in it. An effective defensive response indeed.
Flight 93 was brought down by the passengers in response to the hijacking specifically because it was an airliner. How do you propose to crash-land a hotel or a mall or a school?

Look, folks - as tempting as it seems to envision us'n armed 'Murricans taking a bold stand against the Mumbai-style terrorists, it's just not a likely scenario.
 
Since when is the mini-14 an "assault weapon"? I thought certain configurations of it were mentioned by name as being exempt from the '94 ban.

why would their regular SWAT guys not work, or do they just feel the need for more paramilitary units running around?
SWAT teams might be trained in different scenarios.
 
Since when is the mini-14 an "assault weapon"? I thought certain configurations of it were mentioned by name as being exempt from the '94 ban.
The Bradyites changed their mind. Current iterations of the AWB (H.R.1022 et seq) ban the mini-14 by name.
 
While I applaud them in realizing that they need to train, I have to ask.......why would their regular SWAT guys not work, or do they just feel the need for more paramilitary units running around?


Emergency Services Units (ESU) are the SWAT guys for NYPD. They also respond to people stuck in elevators, building collapses, various rescues, etc.
 
Huh?

Quote:
"the article ignores the most basic of front-line defenses, a legal CHL holder!"

"A legal CHL holder (as opposed to an illegal CHL holder?) doesn't stand a chance against two Mumbai-style goblins armed with AK47s."

You're kidding right? A CHL holder (legal or otherwise) with a G19 backed with two standard cap mags behind decent cover (and presuming all 3 mags have decent SD ammo of the Gold Dot/Golden Sabre etc flavour) would be ineffective?

Remember, the two scumbags likely don't have much more training than you do (maybe LESS than a dedicated handgun enthusiast) and the CHL holder would have the element of surprise. Using appropriate cover and wounding the two goblins quickly might make it closer than you think.

As well, I think proper use of legally armed citizens would simply be to "buy time" for re-inforcements to arrive, not wipe out terrorist sticks on their own.
If the bad guys are distracted/shooting at a CHL holder, then they aren't killing women/children etc .
 
Wouldn't there be Constitutional issues with maintaining dozens or hundreds of military outposts throughout the U.S.?
There is plenty of posts all over the US already. The issue is with using the military for civilian LE purposes due to the Posse Camitatus Act.

Suicide bombers are popular in other countries. Mumbai isn't the first time that armed terrorists have taken over an occupied building by force either. That doesn't mean it will become a popular tactic here- thoughj I'm not saying not to be prepared.

The differene is that because of incidents (like school shootings and stuff) our LE officials are well prepared for fighting it out in those enviroments and we do have equipped units from all levels that are located all over. There is also the armed element (both off duty LE, armed criminals and civilian CCW holders) in the US that they know exists. Although more difficult than the US to obtain, India does allow civilian CC and there are ordinary citizens with licensed (and unlicensed) guns. Against multiple armed (and dedicated) terrorists, I question the effectiveness a single armed individual would have- especially when they have grenades, automatic weapons and superior numbers.
 
The portion of this article that I found the most confounding is this statement:

"This is consistent with existing notions of community-based policing, and could even include an element of outreach to residents similar to that undertaken in the Sunni areas of Iraq — even if it were to mean taking the paradoxical turn of negotiating with gangs about security."

The "outreach to citizens" is not to those of us who are legally armed. Rather it is to gangs. I suppose the idea is that we pay them to protect us and don't ask about their illegal armament. If that is big city lib thinking, I pity the poor citizens in those areas.
 
Police units steer clear of automatic weapons for a reason. If a weapon has full auto capability, officers must qualify with it and that does not mean just familiarization. Qualification would be a very costly undertaking in both time and money.

A police department would be at the mercy of lawyers if they killed or injured some citizen with a weapon they had been issued and had not qualified with.

Even in three round burst, it takes an extremely well trained individual to keep all three rounds on a stationary B-27 target at 25 yards. You could never train a whole department to do that. The military doesn't have to be trained to that high level. They accept that collateral damage is a fact of combat.
 
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