Objecting to searches for self defense tools

[asteffes]

I live in the Bay Area of California and frequently enter situations where I'm searched for things like firearms, knives, pepper spray and the like. For example, I went to a vintage automobile race event at Sears Point last weekend and (quite unexpectedly, given past experience at this venue) had my small backpack searched for "bottles, knives, guns, pepper spray." Of course, the guy doing the search didn't seem to take it seriously at all and didn't search my person or my jacket for anything. However, had he spied the two ounce Fox 5.3 OC in its nylon holster which was *in my bag* he might have asked me to return it to my car. It seems the number of places into which one can bring self defense tools is dwindling rapidly in the Bay Area.

I would like to know what, if any, troubles folks here have had in similar situations. Have you found any polite ways to object and successfully avoid abandoning your SD tools at the door?
-Adam

 

[Relayer]

There might be several clever ways to try to talk your way out of leaving your stuff outside. As in your case, a lot of the checkers seem less than enthusiastic about it. If you don't make their (spray, etc) obvious, then they will go right on by. However, if it is "found" I think they're are likely to make you dump it, otherwise, their fanny is on the line in several wasys.

 

[asteffes]

Yeah, I can understand that as far as their job security is concerned. The event at the track was especially amusing to me, since I had a Kershaw in my pocket with the belt clip exposed and the OC in my bag which he opened, glanced in, and handed back to me just as quickly. Had they *really* cared about finding something, they could have found two violations on me. Boy, I sure felt safer knowing they were on duty.

I noticed that almost all the security people wore full-on police duty belts, complete with cuffs, OC of their own, flashlight and *empty* sidearm holster. Amazing.
-Adam

 

[fjolnirsson]

I would like to know what, if any, troubles folks here have had in similar situations. Have you found any polite ways to object and successfully avoid abandoning your SD tools at the door?

I left CA. But that's just me. Come to America, it's wonderful here. I've been here since December, and I don't miss the Bay Area at all. IIRC, Sears Point was just purchased, which could be the reason for the change.
I haven't been searched or gone through a metal detector since I got here.
Really, if it's private property, nothing you can do, except hide it, or ask permission.

 

[asteffes]

There's one in every group, isn't there? :banghead: I don't forsee leaving in the immediate future. That's not to say I haven't given it some thought.

 

[yorec]

There's more than one in this group asteffes... If they don't want my money so badly, I try not to force it on them. Goes for the whole state.

 

[fjolnirsson]

By the way, asteffes, welcome to THR.
I couldn't resist, had to needle the new guy.

I think your best bet would be improvised weapons you can carry in, things that seem innocent. I used to know a guy who carried a set of titanium chopsticks everywhere, as an emergency weapon. He took them everywhere, planes, courthouses, etc.

 

[DarkKnight01]

They arent referred to as "concealed weapons" for nothing...

 

[thorn726]

YEEha! stay , vote, be armed.

this is too great a place to give it up to idiots.

anyway this is an interesting topic i get searched all the time too, but it is at smaller clubs where basically in a super crowded, small space, tons of huge security guards, i guess i feel better with the drunkards searched and unarmed.
*****
2 things tho- first they are searching more for drugs than weapons in the places i go. i guess more violence prone clubs have different policies- i laugh when they look thru my cigs, i have dreads, i look to suspicious to carry things inot a place like that, and more importantly i have more respect for the club owners than to do that.

SEcond- now football games, bigger arenas, concerts- most of the staff are lightweights, there are tons of places for potential problems. some people just like to get in fights, etc. does make sesne to have some sort of defense tool.

anyway, i would hide it well and pack it in. have a quick response for what it is if they feel it.
"its a flashlight" has worked for me with questionable items felt thru pockets.

found, they are pretty much obligated to make you dump it, not in any position to make a judgement call, and these days y'all may be on camera anyway- asking someone to potentially lose their job is well.........

but at the same time, like i said, these bigger events, can security adequately
defend anyone? hardly. even at the smaller ones.
tough question.

Haha- what is funny is tonight i am probably going to a club/party that is semi private which means if i so desired i could bring whatever.
of course, unless roaming marauders decide to invade tonight, i see little need
for protection in a place like that


PS= one in every group??? oh boy. get ready there asteffes.

prepare for massive anti CA sentiment. as you cna see below, i am getting frustrated myself

 

[asteffes]

I was just joking with the "one in every crowd" sentiment. I get California jokes all the time from family, friends and on GlockTalk. I think what bugs me more than these goofballs "searching" me is the possibility that I might have to give up one of my tools (I like my knife, my light and my OC) and when I leave I'll find that they "lost" one of them in the meantime. It's almost easier to just not carry any of it (no, I'm not a troll in disguise. It's just a PITA to be prepared sometimes.)
-Adam

 

[thorn726]

when I leave I'll find that they "lost" one of them in the meantime.

oh for sure, no way would i trust them. whoever you give it to will be off work by the time you leave.

 

[rudolf]

Next time you see your docter, tell him that occasionally your knee starts hurting so much somebody else needs to help you walk. Ask him what to do (ignore answer). Ask him if it would be good to take a walking stick along just in case. Ask him where to buy one.

Buy a sturdy rattan walking stick. Get it from a medical suppy, and only buy rattan. Take that along. If they don't let you in with it, tell them you want their name because you are disabled and they are just discriminating you.

 

[torpid]

Next time you see your docter, tell him that occasionally your knee starts hurting so much somebody else needs to help you walk. Ask him what to do (ignore answer). Ask him if it would be good to take a walking stick along just in case. Ask him where to buy one.

Buy a sturdy rattan walking stick. Get it from a medical suppy, and only buy rattan. Take that along. If they don't let you in with it, tell them you want their name because you are disabled and they are just discriminating you.

...and limp occasionally.


Or, if you want to keep honest, have a loved one shatter your kneecap with an aluminum bat before you visit the Doc.

.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

It's a tough call and truly difficult to provide concrete advice that will work everywhere. The problem is that a decent, law-abiding person can have tools that are perfectly legal (by statute) in one place...but prohibited by ownership in the building next door. This is why we are effectively being denied access to our flashlights, pocketknives, and firearms. If people can't pass draconian legislation, they will simply "inconvenience" us into submission. It's For The ChildrenTM, of course.

I recently attended a music concert and received a patdown upon entry. The guard felt my SureFire E2E and said that it could be used as a weapon if grasped tightly. He asked that I return it to my vehicle or surrender it if I didn't feel like walking back the half-mile to my car. Needless to say, I jogged back to my parking spot where I placed it with my Benchmade AFCK that I had removed earlier in the evening. Both of these items are 100% legal for carry in my area...just not in "their" place. It's not like I'm going to skip the concert on principle. They don't care since I've already paid for my ticket weeks ago.

asteffes/Adam, you're absolutely correct when you say that it is a PITA to be prepared all the time. This is especially true if you're visiting someplace like New York City and will be walking all day without access to a car. People like us would prefer to have a full kit with everything one might need in the course of ten or twelve hours of sightseeing. It's even worse if you're with friends and family who may already feel you're a bit "overboard" when it comes to tools and preparedness. Rather than support your desire to have basic items available, they're likely to "side" with guards, "See asteffes? Why do you always have to carry that junk around? You should have left that flashlight at the hotel room. It is for 'everyones' safety..."

Well, that was quite a rant without any proposed solutions! I suppose one could lobby their congresscritters to enact legislation that would prohibit propertyowners from prohibiting safety equipment that was otherwise permitted in the jurisdiction.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Jeff White]

Moving to Legal and Political
Jeff

 

[Werewolf]

this is too great a place to give it up to idiots.

Last time I was in CA was in 2000. It:

Cost too much to live.
Cost too much to visit.

And it had:

Too many people.
Too many idiots.
Too many cars.
Too many laws.

I don't imagine it's changed much in 5 years - the laws at least have gotten worse...

Stay there - by all means - PLEASE! - that just means the CA folks won't be spreading their form of BS weirdness to the real United States.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi asteffes / Adam-

Sent you a personal message via THR.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[gc70]

Titanium chopsticks? I have a 6" ballpoint pen, made by a major pen manufacturer from a solid blank of aircraft aluminum. I have never had a question or even a second glance at the pen from TSA, building security, etc.

 

[Brick]

Hi all,

If anyone has played Hitman Contracts, Silent Assassin or Codename 47 than you know about the Fiber Wire...

For those who don't, it looks like this:

You go up behind someone and strangulate them by breaking that vital bone or something...

Just take a piece of strong wire like that, put some sticky stuff on it for the handles, and sneek up behind your foe...

 

[Art Eatman]

Gee, Brick, that's rather similar to a Bolo tie, isn't it? Brings to mind interesting ideas...

, Art

 

[zahc]

you could be super tactical and use like, braided dyneema fishing line (6 times stronger than steel) with carbon fiber handles.

 

[asteffes]

Blue Jays, thank you for the thoughtful response as well as the PM. I suppose if one were to require, say, businesses on private property to allow carry of otherwise legal tools then one might have to say that others must allow carry of the same tools in a home or other private property. What if I don't want someone to bring their guns into my home or into my business? I think I should get to make that call, and I think others should get to make that call, too, when it comes to their property. However, I do think that we should all be able to disagree without being disagreeable and talk out our disagreements openly.

Had the security fellow at the track event found my OC or my Kershaw on me, I would have asked (I've been chomping at the bit to get the chance) if he was willing to use his tools and his life to defend mine if someone decided to cause me harm. I mean, imagine the look on his face if I did.

I suppose it just comes down to how frightened that person is about losing his or her job if they allow me to keep my tools on me when they're told not to. It's one of those "you win some, you lose some" type of situations.
-Adam

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi asteffes-

At least the good news is that guards cannot confiscate tools that you bring to a stadium, amusement park, concert, or museum. The only thing they can do is simply refuse you entry. You then have the option of securing your flashlight/pocketknife/OC/firearm elsewhere and returning to the venue.

I see what you're saying about property rights and I agree that you should determine who is carrying what when they enter your home. It's a bit blurred when we're talking about truly public places like movie theaters. That last comment isn't a joke. Movie theaters near my home were asking the beanpole 16-year-old ticket collectors to "inspect" the bags of patrons. People thought I was quite bold when I handed them my ticket with a smile and quickly brushed past with a pleasant "No thank you!" when they asked to peer inside my bag. Do you know I've done this at least thirty times and there hasn't been a single repercussion? It is all silly window dressing.

People are growing accustomed to and accepting these absurd intrusions. It is absolutely lowering our awareness for real threats. Why waste time patting down a white-haired grandfather for a lousy 3-inch pocketknife when security personnel should be worried about someone using a cropdusting plane loaded with weaponized anthrax over the stadium?

Time to stop ranting!

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[BostonGeorge]

People thought I was quite bold when I handed them my ticket with a smile and quickly brushed past with a pleasant "No thank you!" when they asked to peer inside my bag. Do you know I've done this at least thirty times and there hasn't been a single repercussion? It is all silly window dressing.

The security guards at Home Depot don't seem to like it all that much when I do this on my way out. I love to see them get all riled up, especially when it's busy.

 

[griz]

I went to a gun show at Norfolk Scope a while back, the first one they have had in maybe 10 years. There was an employee holding the door for the people in line. The guy in front of me asked her what she did when she wasn't holding the door. She said she usually checked for guns and knives, but this event was a little different.

I usually don't go to places where I worry so much about the other people that I would be glad we are all disarmed. And yes that means concerts are mostly out.