Observations (and rant) about women and the gun world.

[c919]

So the other day I took my wife to her first gun show here in TN. Aside from ammo, we weren't really looking to buy anything, but we were looking for carry gun ideas for her. She will be making the CCW leap in the near future and she is not sure what she wants to carry. She wants to carry IWB and has tried on my holsters just to get an idea of size and even the PPS was too big for her (she's 4'11" and 100lbs soaked).

We have a pretty good range here that has a decent rental case, but it doesn't really have that many subcompacts, etc. So the gun show was at least a place where she could get her hands on all of the things we've been looking at online. (She's leaning towards a PM9 or a Sig 238)

Anyhow, we stop at this one booth so she could check out a P32 and we got to talking to the fellow operating this booth. He was pretty friendly at first, but as we started small talk about what she was looking for he tells her that it would be absolutely stupid for her to carry anything but a .22 j-frame (at this time he displayed said gun). She promptly replied "Nope, not gonna happen. I'm looking for a carry gun." That's my girl! He replied "Little lady, this is about the only gun you'll be able to shoot worth a damn and it's perfect for keepin' in your purse."

I step in and tell him that she's no novice. She routinely, and accurately, shoots my SP101 .357, Beretta PX4 .40, Walther PPS 9mm and her new favorite is my G20 (and all she's put through it is DoubleTap ). Recoil is not a big issue here. She chimes in to tell him that she wouldn't be carrying in her purse, she was going IWB. He just keeps on insisting that anything but a .22 revolver in her purse is a bad choice for her. So I thanked him and we went on to the next booth.

Now I understand that a .22 revolver would be a good option for some people (it's better than nothing right?), but one should carry something bigger as long as they can still maintain proficiency. I guess he just though I was blowing smoke about her shooting bigger calibers.

We had several folks suggest purse carry throughout the day. Seriously, it's not hard to reason that a gun in a purse is just a poor plan. It's terrible advice IMO.

The above story is just one of many examples of how women are often treated in the gun world. Over the past couple of years since my wife has gotten into shooting, I've heard some pretty bad advice thrown her way. It must suck for all the ladies out there who know a bit about guns. It doesn't really matter what level of knowledge she displays, she just gets treated like there is no way she will ever know what's best for herself. I know people in the gun business see plenty of ignorance from both genders, but some folks just can't talk to women as equals. It's just assumed that they know nothing. I know new shooters need to be walked through everything and start from the bottom, but people should be able to tell when someone has been through the motions and has become an avid and educated gun enthusiast.

How frustrated would we be if we had guys tapping us on the shoulder to give us advice we already know every time we were at the range? Or if every time we walked into a gun shop someone had to condescend to us? I think all of us have been to "that gun shop" where everyone was treated like an idiot, what if that was the attitude you got almost everywhere?

When I meet someone who has an interest in guns, I can usually tell whether or not they actually know a good deal about them within a few sentences. It's not hard to read people. I would think that if these folks weren't so tied up in spouting out what they thought was best for someone else, they might actually listen and be able to tell that there are a good deal of women out there with a knowledge of guns. Furthermore, they might be able to hear what a woman is looking for and help her with that.

There are a few stores here that know us and they treat her just like they would treat a guy with decent knowledge of guns. To be honest, those places get more of my money. Personally, I don't like people who treat my wife like an idiot. Nor do I like people giving my wife advice that could get her killed.

So do you all notice this stuff too?

For those of you with wives or daughters that shoot, do they get the same treatment?

Ladies of THR, I'd really like to hear from you on this topic.

 

[CoRoMo]

He replied "Little lady...

This is where you should have walked away. And I completely agree with you. While I think you realize that he was just trying to help, he should have known when to listen and when to speak.

 

[Sediment]

My Girlfriend and I went to the local Guns, Fishing and Attitudes last weekend to do some shooting and a little shopping. She rented a S&W 632 (I think) in .38 special. She seems to have a preference toward revolvers so she rented that and a box of rounds. After she shot half the box I looked over at her in the lane and could see she wasn't happy with it. Asking her what was wrong she said it felt good in her hand but didn't like how it shot. She's also a very petite woman at 4' 10" and her choices are more limited due to the size of her hand and the reach of her trigger finger.

She finished the box, and we went upstairs to look at the handguns on display for sale to see what else she might like to try. After a few minutes the counter jockey asks if we wanted to see anything. By now I wasn't going to leave her side since I know how a lot of these guys treat women, as shown by c919's story above.

She tells him about the 632 and how she didn't like it. Surprisingly he asked what else she has shot and she told him about my Glock G22 and Kimber 1911. The look on his face was priceless

He went and grabbed a SA XD9 (I believe, I'm bad about guns I don't own) a sub-compact 9mm and her demeanor changed from defeated to ecstatic. He gave his spiel about the pro's of the XD line and I didn't hear him spout a word of BS to her. He didn't try to talk her into a smaller round, smaller gun, "lady's model", or a more expensive model. She asked my thoughts and I told her I haven't shot one but have heard good things. I think she liked the familiar feel of a polymer pistol and a thicker grip.

She ended up buying it with night sights included and I'm pleased he didn't try to BS her about the pistol one bit. A rare thing to see kinda like an honest politician.

Sorry to hear about how your wife was treated c919. Large or small, male or female, young or old, no one deserves to treated the way she was. Good on you for walking away and continuing the search for the CCW gun she want's and likes.

 

[hso]

So do you all notice this stuff too?

Sadly, yes, but it's not much worse than car dealers and hardware/home improvement stores have been until recently.

Let your wife know about corneredcat.com. She will find solid advice about on the body carry challenges that women face and ways to deal with them as ways to fit a handgun that anyone can benefit from reading.

 

[danprkr]

There are a few stores here that know us and they treat her just like they would treat a guy with decent knowledge of guns. To be honest, those places get more of my money. Personally, I don't like people who treat my wife like an idiot. Nor do I like people giving my wife advice that could get her killed.

Yeah, I had basically the same deal with my first wife, and several car dealers. We wound up buying from a dealership 50 miles from home because the guy 5 miles away was a jerk who wouldn't stop selling me. Even after being told flat out, "It's her decision you should be selling this car to her."

It's as bad or worse in the gun world no doubt, but my current wife isn't as informed. She asks that I do all the buying. I really wish she'd get more into it, but she's attained enough proficiency that I'm comfortable with her nightstand gun. I can only hope she goes CCW eventually.

 

[Sgt_R]

My GF knows more about cars and tools than I do (she's into restoring vintage VW's), and almost as much about firearms and electronics. It's always amusing to watch some uninformed car/gun/computer salesman attempt to give her that kind of treatment.

R

 

[c919]

Let your wife know about corneredcat.com. She will find solid advice about on the body carry challenges that women face and ways to deal with them as ways to fit a handgun that anyone can benefit from reading.

Oh she is very familiar with CorneredCat. So am I for that matter. Kathy has a solid site with great info. In fact, one of my first instructions to my wife when she decided that she wanted to really take up shooting was to get familiar with CorneredCat.

It really has a ton of great info for man and woman alike. I know I've probably read every article on there. Even if it doesn't necessarily apply to me, there's plenty of great stuff to pass on to those it does apply to. It's definitely one of my first suggestions for new shooters. I just got my in-laws turned onto shooting recently (another story, another time but a big pat on the back for me ) and I had them spend some time on CC even before taking them to the range.

 

[ArmedBear]

Around here, most gun shops have women behind the counter. That sort of stuff doesn't happen. Advice to women tends to be good, and based on real experience. I know how I carry a concealed gun, but my clothes are different. A woman's firsthand experience is worth a good deal, say, to another woman looking for a holster.

Also, at a shop where they spout BS to women, they spout BS to men, too. I try not to patronize places that spout BS.

 

[Fremmer]

Yeah, there's always a lot of gun b.s. thrown around everywhere. If you'd been looking for the gun, he would have told you how only the .45 ACP would do, because anything less is weak.

The longer she's in the gun world, the more she'll realize that you have to take stuff with a grain of salt whilt wading through a lot of brown murky stuff.

 

[Ky Larry]

This kind of attitude isn't just confined to the gun world. There's all kind of preconceived ideas in the world based on age,race,gender,religion, and national origion. You did the right thing by keeping your money in your pocket and walking away.

 

[benEzra]

He replied "Little lady, this is about the only gun you'll be able to shoot worth a damn and it's perfect for keepin' in your purse."

What an idiot.

I suspect that if someone had said to him, "Little man, this .22 is about the only gun you'll be able to shoot worth a damn and it's perfect for keepin' in your vest pocket," the guy would be a teeny bit insulted....

 

[Officers'Wife]

I put up with the condescending remarks and attitudes. After all, they are only men and don't really know any better. I have noticed that on the range they only 'take it easy' on me once.

 

[oldfool]

good for you, OP
milady never liked that
I never liked that
we never spent our hard earned dollars in places that did that, and we still don't

PS
but it is not totally one-sided, you know, "guns = man thing"
she used to accuse me of "deliberately missing a few" when we shot together
the "bad news" is, she figured out that I wasn't

 

[c919]

Oldfool,

Oh yeah, I know how that goes my friend. When we were first married I took her to MS to meet my family and we went shooting with my grandfather. I don't know if it's luck, divine intervention or inherent skill, but from the first shot (from a 44-40 lever gun no less) she has been an AMAZING shot with any rifle she's been handed.

I practice for years and years and besides the usual safety talk, she has been a crazy good shot with virtually no instruction. From my experience, a confident woman can pick up guns quicker than most of the guys I've taught. Must be in the genes or something (or in some cases just a great ability to listen without the "I'm a man, I'll figure it out" tendencies we possess).

With most pistols, I can still hand it to her , but with rifles she's easily my equal unless one of us is having an off day (and the guys in my family never cease to remind me how she out shot me one day with a TC Encore in 35 Whelen). Not to brag, but it sure is awesome to have a shooting buddy/wife combo that can hold her own. I'm almost scared to see how my daughter will do once she comes of age.

 

[oldfool]

^^^^^^^

 

[distra]

My wife has carried for 4years and never had an issue like this. She carries SOB because it is less impact on her clothing. Not the best, but at least it is on her. Her PF-9 and G19 work well for her. Never had a shop try to point her in the "right" direction.

 

[Webbj0219]

Its called stereotyping. He has probably worked with many woman that have never shot before and wouldnt like anything bigger than a .22. So he just sees your wife and assumes the same.

 

[benEzra]

He has probably worked with many woman that have never shot before and wouldnt like anything bigger than a .22.

Or perhaps he actually hasn't shot with women at all, and is going solely on his assumptions.

 

[Salty1]

One thing I noticed about guns show is there are a lot of people selling firearms who do not have a clue what they are talking about, they want to sell what is on their table, especially items they have had in inventory for a long time. I would be willing to bet that he had the gun he was recommending. I never recommend guns to our customers, maybe give some ideas based on use, hand size and budget but I feel guns are a personal decision. I have seen many guy's buy their significant other a gun only to have it sold for something else because it did not work for them. I am a Sig guy, and my opinion is that people cannot go wrong with one of them, but still do not tell people that is what they need to buy. My wife has a Sig Pro for the range and a 238 for carry, I carry an LCR most of the time because it is easily concealed. They work for us, but does not mean thay would fit others...... No matter what gun people have they do no good if people cannot accuratly shoot them, a 22 that somebody can shoot is better than a 45 that they could not hit a barn with.....

 

[Mike J]

Sounds like he was not a good salesman. I used hang out with a guy that could sell pretty much anything & made a good living at it. He told me the first rule of sales was to listen to the customer. He just hurt himself because he didn't listen to you. As time goes on & more women get involved with the shooting sports these guys will change their attitudes or lose income due to their incompetence.

 

[Polar Express]

Last year, I wanted to get my wife a carry gun. So, we started looking. I even posted up here a few times looking for suggestions for her to try. The big thing I tried to do was find a woman behind the counter, or if not available, I checked the store out before she came in with me. I wanted to know their attitudes, and I asked them point-blank. She picked out her own gun. I was happy that she selected the M&P, but I would have gotten her whatever she selected.

Up here, in WA, we have the Firearms Academy of Seattle, located a couple hours south of the city. (we live an hour north) They run satellite classes at different ranges, and they have ladies-only classes. Taught by ladies, with only lady students. That way they can use that woman-only communication thing they got going, and they can feel comfortable asking any question, or broaching any topic without feeling embarrassed. I hope to get my bride signed up for one of those classes soon. You may be able to find a similar class in your area.

PE

 

[c919]

Polar Express,

Yeah, that's a great idea. It's not exactly something my wife would need, but I'm sure many women could benefit from something like that.

My wife has definitely gone through the motions with learning the basics, but I can see where woman-to-woman training would be very beneficial. I'd say it puts a very different spin on quality training for the ladies. Hopefully they do have something like that around here, because it would be perfect for my mother in law. She is just starting to warm up to guns and actually went to the range with us and shot my Buckmark and my P226. However, I still think she's a bit uncomfortable with the range environment. With her disposition, I can definitely understand how it would put her on edge. She might be the most gentle, sweet woman I know.

 

[mljdeckard]

You know who the worst perp I have seen lately for this is? MY DAD.

Ok, so he finally buys a 1911, and decides that he might as well get a permit. He told my wife that he was going to get the class from an old friend of ours, who is a great guy and gunsmith, but he requires a shooting test, which is over and above the state rules. My mom surprised everyone by saying that she wanted to go too. Now, my dad isn't really thrilled about the idea of teaching her, he mostly sees that if it's a hobby she is into as well, she will let him buy more stuff, so of course he encourages her. No problem. (I talked to her about it, and found out that she just wants to have it around the house and sometimes in the car. I told her that she doesn't even need a permit for that. But anyway.)

Here's the problem. My mom hasn't shot a handgun in thirty years that I can recall, and if she ever did it was my dad's old Ruger Mk I. (It was the only handgun he had for decades.) So they take the class, and have her shoot, and she's all over the paper. (She was using a borrowed Mk III target gun with a bull barrel.) My dad was aghast that my mom the 60 year-old vocal music professor couldn't just pick up a gun off of the table and shoot it like James Bond's romantic interest. In all fairness, the test sounded a little bit.....old school and useless. Something like 30 yards and tight groups. (Which I later explained to her really isn't combat shooting at all.) So MY DAD, says that we have to get her a .22 or .22 mag NAA mini-gun to carry. It's all she can handle. She can't even rack the slide on his 1911. This just won't work.

I tell him to calm down a second. Yes she can rack the slide, I'll show her how. No, she really DOESN'T want to carry a .22 if there's any other option. (She has MANY options.) I said I would take her to a rental range and have her shoot a 4" revolver with .38s. She's not so old and feeble that she can't shoot DA, and when she gets used to it we can upgrade her to .357s.

So a couple of days ago, I'm talking to my mom about it, and not only did he not tell her these things, he was still sure she needs a .22 mag revolver. He likes these NAA minis, and they are made locally. (He's hung up on .22 mag because we got him a Single-Six with both cylinders a couple of years ago and he loves it.) I baffled her when I told her there is a rental range a few miles from where she lives where she can try lots of different guns and see what works. She told me that she went out with my dad to the rock quarry where the locals waste ammo, and he was having her shoot, and an old guy with lots of marine and gun related stickers on his truck wanders over and asks; "Could you guys use some help?" (I'm sure he was tired of watching the revolver jump almost out of her hand with every shot.) My dad stepped between them defensively, "No, I got it, I'm teaching her." And they went back to wasting ammo.

I reminded her that this was the same guy who isn't the best shooting teacher on the block. I took hunter's safety when I was like eleven, and I failed the shooting test because I was too scrawny to hold the rifle straight. I took it again the NEXT fall, and failed it again, because he didn't take the time to watch me shoot and see what I was doing wrong. His idea of shooting instruction was to tell me, "Squeeze, don't jerk. Do that a hundred times and you will be as good as me." It didn't work for me, and I didn't pass hunter's safety until I was an adult, discharged from the army, already an expert marksman. The truth is, I mostly figured it out on my own. I took the .22 out to the desert and just shot. So we kind of agreed that she would go along with him, and I would find some time to take her to the rental range.

I also referred her to cornered cat.

 

[Corey]

One from the other side of the counter. I have a second job at a large retailer in Utah. We have a woman that works on the gun counter with us. She is very knowledgable, hunts, shoots many types of handguns, etc. It is amazing how many customers when faced with her helping them insist on talking to a man. Sometimes when she goes to help them the say something like "I need to talk to someone who knows about guns" or just flat out "I need to talk to a man." Absolutely amazing. It happens several times a day when she is there. We have to be polite, but it is insulting and crass. Customers calling on the phone do it more often than customers in person, but it still happens on a daily basis with customers standing right there at the counter.

We like to play a little game when this happens. She will have one of us guys come to help the customer. Whatever question they ask, no matter how simple, we act like we don't know and turn to her and ask her. Then we repeat her answer back to the customer like he didn't hear us ask her right in front of them. Polite on the surface, but hopefully sends a message and makes us feel better.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Heck--I seek out the female behind the counter so I don't have to put up with the BS from the guys there---and I'm a guy--lol. Plus most of em are fairly cute.