Obsession with brassbustin' pressure/velocity?

[Buzzard]

If the bottom of the envelope represents velocity, and the left side represents pressure, then people are constantly pushing that upper-right corner. Trying to get pressures higher to generate faster velocity. Trouble is, they forget that's where the postage gets canceled.

Roughly paraphrasing Adm. Rick Hunter, USN (R).

 

[KBintheSLC]

I think some of us are still confusing innovation with just plain old fantasy. Experimenting with wildcat cartridges is one thing, and I would only encourage you to do that if you do it right.

On the other hand, it is nothing but a pure fantasy to believe that using some ++p++ hyper-ninja-load will end the fight any faster than a standard loading would. Actually, too much velocity can severely hinder bullet performance once it hit's the target, especially on larger animals where penetration matters. I have learned this fact from loading and testing lots of ammo myself, rather than merely recapping something I read online.

If you think you are some sort of "pioneer" because you blew up your gun with some mega-load, you may want to think again. It has been done before. It does not take much creative genius to pull it off either.

 

[Bula]

Elmer Keith was a pioneer. But do you think he'd waste his time now, blowing up .44 specials, when he could go out and buy a Smith .460 or .500?

 

[Venado]

I never said I blew up a gun, I have not. Mim parts do take a beating, and get replaced. I am not going to debate this with you.

 

[SuperNaut]

If you are getting better accuracy and range, knock yourself out (heh). But if it doesn't improve performance then I'm not seeing the innovation or purpose.

 

[slimdude]

I could never really understand the 9mm +p loads. Shoot your 9mm and be happy or move up to a .40?

 

[KBintheSLC]

I am not going to debate this with you. -Venado

That is your right by all means. There is no need to pout about it though... we are just having a discussion here. Agreeing with one another is not a requisite for participation.

 

[CraigC]

Elmer Keith was a pioneer. But do you think he'd waste his time now, blowing up .44 specials, when he could go out and buy a Smith .460 or .500?

...and how many .44Spl's did Keith "blow up"?

 

[buck460XVR]

Depends on what it is. Let us not forget that cartridge development owes a lot to experimenters who pushed the envelope with existing guns and cartridges.

Let's not forget the first airplane was built and flown by bicycle makers in their garage. Does that mean the Air Force's next Stealth Fighter will built by the average guy in his basement? Technology and necessary equipment dictate this ain't gonna happen. Same with guns. The .357 mag and the .44 mag were built outta necessity using the technology of the day, by folks that weren't your average internet surfer..... their madness had a method and a purpose, and their goal was not just trying to make a big bang with hand-stingin' recoil. For those that load to max, but stay within SAAMI limits, great, your gun was designed for that. For those that feel the need to exceed limits set by folks with more knowledge than them, just because they can and because it makes them feel tough, good for you. It's your gun. But I like my eyes and my fingers and like Walkalong stated, if I want something to make a bigger bang than what one gun can give me, I'll get a bigger gun. There's a lot of them out there. Every caliber I own shoots most accurately with loads below max.......and I still have enough power to kill any game animal in North America. But I have some big guns. Even at less than max, they make all the noise and recoil anyone could want, without getting hurt themselves and without endangering you or innocent bystanders. If you want to go drive fast, get a car designed to go fast. Puttin' a Cadillac engine in a Vee-Dub ain't gonna do it.

 

[KBintheSLC]

The .357 mag and the .44 mag were built outta necessity using the technology of the day, by folks that weren't your average internet surfer..... their madness had a method and a purpose

Ditto... many of the great firearms innovators of the past couple of centuries were actual engineers, or at the very least had some measurable level of engineering prowess. They actually bothered to do the geometry/physics/chemistry/thermodynamics calculations when developing new cartridges. Many of them even built entirely new guns around those cartridges.

Once again, adding an extra grain or two to a published max load does not make someone "innovative" in any sense of the word. This also goes for companies who market hot-rod ammo... .40 S&W +P


...

 

[Robert Wilson]

I'm not sure old Elmer blew up any .44 Specials. He did blow up several .45 Colts, way back in the 20's or 30's, which is why he started hot-rodding the .44 - thicker chamber walls. It's worth noting that once the .44 Magnum came out he quit the Special entirely and even complained that some of the Magnum loads were too hot.

And by the time he was in his 50s he was arguing strongly against "maximum" loads in any cartridge, complaining that they rarely worked well and were dangerous to boot. Age and wisdom...

 

[FROGO207]

I reload IIRC 36 different cal cartridges and not one of them gives best accuracy at or near max load. Not even best accuracy at 98% or 99% of max. Why on Gods green earth would I WANT to reload a cartridge that is purposely inaccurate after finding the best possible combo for accuracy???? Missing my mark faster is not on my short list.:banghead: Also the savings on propellant and longer brass life are worth considering.

 

[fourdollarbill]

I am not going to debate this with you. -Venado

That is your right by all means. There is no need to pout about it though... we are just having a discussion here. Agreeing with one another is not a requisite for participation.

Venado is not pouting! You did not agree or disagree you just put words in his mouth so you could secure something within yourself. You decided to sensationalize his words so you could lay out a self gratifying comment that had nothing to do with his statement. Then you discredit him with "creative genius".

If you think you are some sort of "pioneer" because you blew up your gun with some mega-load, you may want to think again. It has been done before. It does not take much creative genius to pull it off either.

You know all the testing and gun blowing up has already been done so we don't have to, I understand that too. So if someone decides to drive 65 in a 65 zone don't try to diminish them just because you think anything over 55 is unacceptable. I load em hot once and a while and I appreciate the pioneers for that too and much more.

Maybe know one else caught that little stunt but I did and I think it was wrong. $4

 

[zombie44]

I started reloading soon after I bought my first gun about 8 mos. ago. Started with 38 specials and 357 mag but quickly moved up to the 44 mag. I just love the adrenaline rush of the big boomers! I'm very careful about my reloads and for the sake of my brass and revolver I decided to move up in caliber to .480 Ruger instead of messing with hot 44 mag loads. Even at starting loads a 400g bullet shot from a .480 revolver delivers quite a satisfying kick

 

[Ky Larry]

I load for safe, accurate ammo. Seldom will you find a max load to be the most accurate. Who cares how fast a round is if you can't hit your target? If you want a bigger boom, get a bigger gun.

P.S. If you're going to shoot overmax loads, please tell the people around you at the range. If you want to turn your gun into flying splinters, feel free. However, you don't have the right to take anybody else with you.

 

[browningguy]

In long range shooting 50-100 FPS can make a reasonable difference in the wind correction. Accuracy comes first, but velocity counts.

 

[JTHunter]

About 35 years ago, I bought a little .380 SA and used factory loads. Accuracy wasn't up to what I thought it should be, so read up on bullet types and charge weights from several manuals. I ended up using W231 powder with the 3 types of bullets I was loading. For some reason, my best accuracy was right at the max charge for all these bullets (90 gr. HP, 95 gr. FMJ-FP, & 100 gr. FMJ-RN). Single hand shooting at 25' targets with these reloads gave me about 3" groups from a 3" barrel.
Works for me.
My .22LR Ruger revolver can do better but it's barrel is almost 7" long. And that is with standard or hi-velocity ammo, NOT with the "hyper" stuff.

 

[justgoto]

I only know a handfull of people that do that. Mostly I think it is bragging rights, their gun is better than yours kinda thing.

I have some loads that are beyond book specs, they are at that charge because that is what is most accurate for that bullet, powder, case, primer in my barrel. Not that those loads are "over-loaded" since there are no pressure signs.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Centuries ago, somebody was probably wondering how much powder he could cram into his matchlock musket.

 

[fourdollarbill]

Bait and Kill

OP's bait

just wondering what you folks think about this topic... I have never noticed any measurable advantage of hot-rod'ing any cartridge, though there are a number of potential pitfalls in doing so. Yet, many folks seem obsessed with riding the upper edge of a cartridge's capabilities. Some ammo companies have even built their entire marketing strategy around exploiting this mentality. So, i was wondering why some of us believe that over-loaded cartridges are somehow better.

OP's kill

if you think you are some sort of "pioneer" because you blew up your gun with some mega-load, you may want to think again. It has been done before. It does not take much creative genius to pull it off either.

I see a lot of this going on on THR, what a bummer.

 

[Maverick223]

I generally "test" my rifles just beyond the maximum and never load that hot again. I generally keep it within the recommended maximum, because there is little benefit in not doing so. The one notable exception is my .45-70Govt. loads created for the 1885 Highwall...I push some of these up to about 45kPSI (with no signs of pressure).

 

[kayak-man]

I don't have the reloading equipment, so I can't hotrod any cartridges, but I think it has to do with getting the most performance you possible can out of what you're working with. Some people just really like to push the limits of their gear, thats why we have the Sunbeam Tiger and all those rails on EBRs. I agree that sometimes you reach a point where you cross the line, but for the most part, I want to get everything I can out of my gear.

To quote Jeremy Clarkson: "POWER!"

 

[hardluk1]

Years ago i was break'n i a new barrel and found that hornady HM 139gr 7mm rem mag ammo out of a 28" krieger barrel will shoot over 3400fps thanks to a guy working up hand loads info at the range. he asked if i wanted to take some shoots over his crono.
Now is this close to blowing up a rifle. His round was a 300 rem ultra mag shooting 165gr something at just a bit over 4000 fps. I Thanked him and got the heck away from him encase that fancy rifle exploded. That seemed to be pushing the pressure limits.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Modern rifles have a very large safety cushion built in, allowing us to get away with a lot. The problem is that "pressure signs" really aren't a reliable predictor of pressure, so hot-rodders end up making guesses about pressure to go along with their guesses about how much cushion their rifles have left. It's a form of roulette that just doesn't make any sense to me, especially considering how easy it is just to get a bigger rifle, if that's really what you need.

 

[Maverick223]

found that hornady HM 139gr 7mm rem mag ammo out of a 28" krieger barrel will shoot over 3400fps thanks to a guy working up hand loads info at the range. he asked if i wanted to take some shoots over his crono. [...] Now is this close to blowing up a rifle.

I doubt it is enough to KB the rifle (and your long bbl contributes a decent amount to the velocity), but that is probably running about 65-70kPSI, which is well over the SAAMI specs for the maximum pressure (61kPSI IIRC). There is a pretty generous margin built into most rifles before they disassemble (about 200% pressure seems to be typical), but that doesn't mean that it will be functional after that first cartridge, nor is that always the case...and either way you could be harmed in the process, and it is very difficult on the rifle. I would never shoot handloads from someone that I didn't trust. BTW, unless the guy shooting the .300RUM (a 65kPSI cartridge) had an extremely long bbl and/or very light bullets (a lot lighter than 165gr.), he better make sure his life insurance policy is up to date, as one would be hard pressed to get 4000fps out of that cartridge without extremely high pressures.